Adobe acquires Allegorithmic

Brave soul…lol

I appreciate you coming here to chime in. I have been using both Adobe and Substance products for a number of years.

Looking forward to what is next at GDC!

2 Likes

Dimension is still available in CC All Apps but will not receive significant updates going forward. Stager is where the action will be at.

1 Like

Sure, I can appreciate all of that. And I apologize if I misunderstood or misrepresented anything you said.

Jerc- will the Substance tools become part of the “main” Creative Cloud (like Illustrator, Photoshop, etc.) or is that a separate toolset? The reason I ask is because we use CC at work and it has Dimension in there, so I figured it will either go away or become the Substance version.

Well this is embarrassing.

Chad Ashley on Twitter: “I don’t know if I’m flattered or pissed that @Adobe @Substance3D used @GSG3D materials and assets to sell THEIR own suite of materials and assets. I’m leaning towards😡 Original Video: https://t.co/Pty88U8vHQ Get Plus & the MSMC materials here: https://t.co/cwjsRk6vyx https://t.co/XTppXeDVHw” / Twitter

and

Greg Zaal on Twitter: “https://t.co/ps2AAAr3Eu Neat tool, but beware false marketing. They show automatic removal of tripod from an HDRI, but this is one of mine that has no tripod already. The “perfect result” they show is not the tool output at all, it’s the original. Don’t trust any of these results” / Twitter

This crap is why people hate Adobe.

8 Likes

@SaintHaven These stemmed from unfortunate mistakes where the agency that was in charge of these videos sub-contracted some shots to a freelance who used 3rd party content rather than ours, and we unfortunately didn’t notice the mistake in the midst of crazy deadlines… We apologized to the creators impacted and are re-rendering new replacement videos.

@Safetyman No plans for the Substance 3D apps to be integrated to Creative Cloud at this point. They remain entirely separate. Dimension will stay in CC All Apps but will not receive any more major update going forward. Stager is where the focus will be.

3 Likes

I get that such face palming “mistakes” can happen, especially when you go with the Adobe way of doing things, which is outsource and use ad agencies to make your advertising content. Content which ends up missing the mark by a long shot. It could have easily been avoided.

They must know a very large segment of the target audience does not like them. So why get sloppy and validate that dislike? With the artist you have on hand, why not keep it in house, the way it used to be? Why not find well known Substance artist to make your advertising material? Why use Adobe’s generic advertising and marketing approach? Stick to your own.

I would think this kind of mistake would have never happened when you guys were independent and kept to your core audience. With Adobe using “advertising agencies”, whose marketing departments are quite frankly dumb and don’t understand (or care about) the actual software or its audience, you end up with marketing material that follows generic trends, rather than speak to the primary user base of said product. You could take out the “substance” logo at the end and swap it with a Nike or itunes logo and it would not feel out of place.

Even the rebranding is worse, in the same horrible Adobe fashion. It just does not look like you guys retained much control, either that or you gave up your own way of thinking for Adobe’s which is what you originally claimed would not happen. Instead of changing Adobe for the better, its the other way around, which is what almost always happens.

2 Likes

You know I see a lot of talk how “Adobe” does this and that but really we (Allegorithmic) are Adobe now, and all the marketing you see, it’s the same team that’s been doing the Substance marketing for years.

With this release, we are presenting our tools to a whole new audience. Millions of Adobe users who for most of them have no idea how 3d creation works. Those videos were aimed at this crowd, and were outsourced because our teams of amazing artists were busy creating tutorials, documentation and all sorts of visuals for the release, on top of doing QA on the apps.

We produced tons of content for the core users including a 1h Keynote with details and demos about all the new features.

Unfortunately I think we underestimated the impact of the new icons and those videos. It seems like a lot of people got hung up on those details and didn’t or barely got the message about what was actually added in these new updates.

A launch like this was a first for us and we’re learning :slightly_smiling_face:

4 Likes

Marketing is tough. And I share a lot of sentiment with previous user comments.

I don’t use any of Allegorithmic product but I am very much aware of them and planning to use in future. Yet I am following Allegorithmic journey and subjectively I believe merger with Adobe was a terrible mistake.

I don’t know what forced you to move to Adobe. It’s probably money. And I’m not saying it in a negative way. I’m perfectly well aware that businesses need money to grow in a stable and predictable way and have funds for RnD.

But you couldn’t have chosen the worst partner!

I’ve been using their products for years and Adobe is the worst on delivering user requested features. If they can do something wrong they’ll likely do it. There’s also a lot of drip feeding “innovation” with their products and catering to amateur users. Developing stuff that is not needed for production while essential features are missing etc.

There is such a baggage of negativity and worse practices with this company and they make barely any effort to fix it. And they don’t need to because they have a strong monopoly on some markets they totally dominates.

I saw a different pattern from Allegorithmic so far. At least it seems from the outside that you care about your users and tries to deliver good value for the money.

Unfortunate, when you joined Adobe you took all their negativity by association. And the more you integrates into their ecosystem the more you vanish as a unique brand. I know you believe you have a strong culture in Allegorithmic but corporate culture of Adobe will eventually win. It might not happen today or tomorrow, but it’ll happen. Adobe has a good track record of ruining unique companies/products and leaving them the bland soup of CC products. Even you rebranding is a first step in that direction. This is why people reacting so strongly to it. Because they are very well aware where it leads to and you’re giving them strong sings. Willingly or not is the second matter.

I lot of people I know are trying to find an out of Adobe ecosystem. In 3D you were such a company for a certain niche of task. And I think people are looking for an out of Allegorithmic products now too.

You might not feel it now but as soon as there is a good enough alternative with fair pricing and licensing options you’ll feel it. The recent example could be DaVinci vs. Premier. From what I see people are very happy with the move to DaVinci. There is also Affinity products but they are not fully there yet to compete at professional production level in some areas.

I believe you as a business made a bad decision long term going with Adobe. If there is a way out for Allegorithmic from this contract I’d strongly recommend to consider it. Users will support you with both hands.

5 Likes

Looking forward to seeing developments coming. You guys have been moving fairly quickly through adding a lot of features that my team and I have enjoyed so far.

We also use a lot of Adobe products.

Mixer is on the rise but it is still not competition yet… lol

But we are watching it closely. :wink:

1 Like

They’re not partners. Adobe bought Allegorithmic. They are Adobe now, this is just one more step of the subsumption of Allegorithmic into the machine that is Adobe.

1 Like

Companies are happy to play the long game (See facebook and Whatsapp (bought back in 2014)). For now they may give you free reign, but all it takes is a slip up here, a missed target there and they will tighten their grip.

With competition on the horizon waiting for any sign of weakness it may help keep Adobe honest, but only time will tell.

For clarification, I have no strong feeling towards Adobe.

1 Like

As long as the core Allegorithmic team continue to work on their products I’ll be happy. I have no issues with Adobe’s products. I’ve used Photoshop for about 25 years. There’s a reason why most professionals continue to use Photoshop when there are seemingly alternatives. I preferred Corel’s Painter to Photoshop for 2D art and illustration but I’m in a minority there as the vast majority of 2D artists seem to love Photoshop for that too. Same with Indesign. I worked in a newspaper production department for 21 years and when we switched over from a doomed proprietary DTP platform to Indesign it was a gamechanger.

My only gripe with Adobe is with their licencing arrangements and the whole Cloud thing. I miss the days when you could just simply buy a piece of software and pop the box on your bookshelf. Realistically I need: Photoshop, Indesign, Illustrator, Acrobat and at a push Lightroom. Additionally now I need Substance 3D Painter (Designer and Sampler not so much).

I have absolutely no need for: Premiere Pro, After Effects, Media Encoder, XD, Premiere Rush, Fresco, Dreamweaver, Animate, Character Animator, Audition, InCopy, Prelude and whatever else lurks in the Creative Cloud. Yet I’m paying a lot of money for all of that.

I just wish that Adobe would break down all the Creative Cloud applications into bundles and offer us what we need for a lesser price. A good starting point would be the classification categories they already use in the CC app: Photo (Lightroom, Lightroom Classic and Photoshop), Graphic Design (Illustrator, Photoshop, Indesign), Video (Premiere Pro and Premiere Rush), etc., etc. Or just offer customers more customisation than asking them to pay the full amount for a whole bunch of stuff they’ll likely never install or use. I must be honest… I’d actually have been happier (and better off) if the Substance stuff had just been lumped into the main CC package.

1 Like

I think some of that criticism is fair, but seeing things from the inside now and interacting with many other teams at Adobe, I know everyone is working their ass off to deliver great updates. It’s definitely harder for flagship apps like Photoshop to make everybody happy when you have a user base of millions, spread across an infinity of industries and use cases and with a 30+ year legacy.

4 Likes

I get what you’re saying and I hope I am wrong about the future of Allegorithmic team.

There is no doubt the development team is talented and passionate about the product. It’s the execs who worries me and I have no trust in Adobe execs. There are countless examples in game dev and software development when bad executive decisions tanked great products.

I wish you my honest best though.

4 Likes

I agree that this has happened. I don’t see this as happening to Adobe nor Substance at all. I could unpack that statement a lot more. But I am going to try to keep it concise.

It is not always the case that what is good for a corporation is bad for individuals.

And bad horrible decisions can be made by small independent teams. Just look what happened to Messiah Studio Pro and LightWave.

EDIT:

I still find the notion that NewTek was touting. “We will never offer or go subscription”… because we know our user base…etc etc etc. to be particularly foretelling.

All the wile the debates had raged on about how Autodesk and Adobe are going to go down in flames because they did not listen to their customers.

However in how many years now this has never happened? Meanwhile LightWave is nowhere to be found.

The two facts may not even be connected. But then that is pretty much the point I am making.

I recall Luxology (Modo) saying the same things when they merged with the Foundry, er now rebranded as just Foundry. Luxology’s CEO and other higher ups merged into Foundry with high positions covering Foundry as a whole. There was at first a lot of positive momentum, claims of saying they were still the same people and were changing Foundry for the better. Then after enough years have passed, their software took a different direction, aiming for a different target audience.

The culture around the software changed, no one interacts much with them on the forums anymore. The CEO who ended with a high position Foundry left, others left. You had to log in to use the software due to a new, anti-consumer licensing model and the software as a service approach, which Adobe normalized, made it even worse.

Development is all but stagnated.

Now a ton of former Luxology customers are here using Blender after being burned by the same predictable pattern. The “corporate” culture and hierarchy win out in the end, every single time and what was there before is completely taken over by the larger entity.

I highly doubt the Substance team is going to be one of the first to break that pattern. The odds are just not in their favor.

There are always going to be reasons, but they may not be based on logic or due to something being inherently better. I met one artist from Blizzard to told me honestly that he was just too lazy to use anything other than photoshop. That its the first thing he was taught in art school, what the tutorials he watched were using, and thus never bothered to explore outside of that. This is a common trend with a lot of users, as well as studios (especially if they already developed a pipeline around it). They can even admit that the software they use as being annoying or full of issues, but ultimately they just don’t have the time, will power or interest to switch.

It’s also a trap, since other people tend to first learn whatever the most common software is at the time, and in photoshop’s case the name itself also became a verb, just like google is used to refer to any search engine entry, or band-aid for any stick on bandage. The software itself does not need to be good, its just managed to keep above the others through various means.

5 Likes

I’ve used Photoshop in a work environment for around 25 years. In those years, at home, I’ve also tried Corel Painter, Inkscape, Krita, Affinity Photo, GIMP, ArtRage, Corel PhotoPaint and some stuff I can’t even remember.

Photoshop is just better and faster to use for production. Sadly I was made redundant from my job in the newspaper industry after 21 years (someone in India is doing my job now), but currently I’m working for a small local photography company that specialises in school and nursey photography. I have to process, clean up and print hundreds of images a day. I can do that in Photoshop very fast. Do I use all the added tools and bloat that have been added to PS over the years? Not really. Levels and curves adjustments, dodge tool, crop tool, sometimes a bit of clone stamping or maybe the Patch tool to get rid of stuff that hangs around kid’s nostrils.

Most recently I purchased a few of the Affinity applications with a view to weaning myself off Adobe eventually… but they are just not there yet. Their alternative to Indesign is lacking a great deal at the moment and Affinity Photo has some way to go too.

3 Likes

This is a really good example of the recent. I stopped rooting for Modo about two years ago. They’re in downwards spiral as I see it.

Again, I don’t wish an ill will neither for Adobe nor for Allegorithmic team but I’ve been around for sometime to learn to see patterns.

Adobe won’t go down anytime soon because of their strategy to diversify risks by increasing their software portfolio. It’s exactly what they did with Allegorithmic to corner a certain niche of the market. The issue though once they do that they are not very motivated to improve software in captured niches.

Photoshop development moved at a glacier speed for years where they catered for amateur audience and ignored bugs and feature requests. Only in the last 5 years things changed for the better. Personally, for me it’s still not enough.

You can do all the work you need in Photoshop for post-production but there are so many improvements that could and should have been done to make it better but there is no incentive. For real high end work there are still no competition. I know about Affinity but it’s not there yet. Although, it surpass Photoshop in some areas.

Adobe’s both strength and weakness is that they take hostage their customers. This action takes many forms. I believe Adobe has very little brand loyalty. Something Allegorithmic initially had for sure. It’s critical for products to thrive and grow. Unless you’re mega corporation who rides a success wave on early wins. Then your strategy to survive is to successfully identify growing products and aquire them and burden your customers with subscription where there are no alternatives to move to. Otherwise as soon as there are decent alternatives with fair license model users will switch.

I’ve seen it happen before and I’m sure I’ll see it again unless Adobe change or improve their ways. It can take many years for such huge corporation like Adobe as well as change in market and leadership.

1 Like

Isn’t that the main reason - familiarity? I’m always glad when I can check off a function or an entire software as ‘does the job’ or ‘a problem solved’. You’d have to show me a significantly better alternative to get me to learn a new tool to essentially perform the same work.

That being said …I switched to Affinity. :innocent:

1 Like