Best Auto Retopology tool ever?

NodeX · April 10, 2022, 3:38am

no changes to any of the settings

I never said I used the default settings, as the requirement is a higher poly count output.
So the first visible and dramatic difference with your results is that you have set the autoretopo for a much lower poly output (by leaving it on default settings).

Now if it works great only on default settings, then the settings should be fixed, not variable, otherwise it’s not the user’s fault if the software produces horrible results inside the allowed range.

Besides, I used the same inputs, and with the same demand on output number of polygons, I got decent results both with QuadRemesher and Zremesher.

And BTW, Zremesher too didn’t have a problem with big holes on the mesh for the eyeballs, while 3Dcoat got completely crazy, which again verifies my point about holes and retopology.

For anyone interested, the output of Zremesher was almost identical to QuadRemesher when I matched the poly count and set adaptivity to max, but QuadRemesher handled a bit better the “star” polygons:

Zremesher #1:

QuadRemesher #1:

Zremesher #2:

QuadRemesher #2:

These were the only differences in a whole mesh, but I haven’t tried all settings from Zremesher, and it also has the option to manually assist it by drawing loops.
I haven’t tried QR’s option which is using materials either.

What on earth are you doing to get these strange results ?
[…] I am not finding any of these issues with the software right now you are. Something is very likely wrong about how you are going about it. No complex software is ever going to be totally bug free but I am not seeing any of these problems you are and I find the posts a bit confusing.

If you want to reproduce exactly the results I posted here for the 250k Monkey and witness the …mess yourself, you just have to follow the following steps:

Step #1.
Step #2:

3c_2798×318 30.3 KB
Step #3:
Step #4:
Then scale the final object at least 4000 times as it appears extremely small (but you already know that) and voila! I tried it both with and without x-symmetry and got the same results, but symmetry should not be required, as not all meshes are symmetrical (faces aren’t for sure).

It’s past midnight here, All I want is to finish up and go to bed so I am putting no effort at all into these 3D Coat tests.

Well, it’s morning right now, (past 6:00 AM), so I have sacrificed my night sleep and I have put a lot of effort on tests, searching for solutions.

People are very helpful here and if this is causing you stress with your work then we can all help.

Thanks, I appreciate it, but I think the software has shown its weaknesses in comparison to the other two.
I doubt that it will give decent results comparable to the other two, with a different procedure when a high poly count output is the demand, from a sculpted, organic mesh from Blender with internal cavities like a mouth cavity and details that have to be kept like the eyelids, in sort, like the one I used as a test.

There is also no reason to ever need to take it out on the software or the developers.

I gave my honest feedback after losing a whole day trying to make the software work, to no avail, (overestimating the software), but other software did work fine so I’m happy I found alternatives, and I have also used valuable time and effort for that feedback too, that I’m sure will help other people here.

So if some of the devs are sad about it, it’s a good thing, because they might put some more effort next time, and make a better product version for their valuable customers.

I know, because I program too, I make bugs too, and imperfections, but I also invest time and effort to correct them before I publish the software.

Metin_Seven · April 10, 2022, 8:45am

Quad Remesher = ZRemesher (3.0). Same algorithm, same developer. The only difference is that ZR is licensed to Maxon, while QR is an independent product.

Sponde · April 10, 2022, 9:45am

I have Zbrush and 3DCoat and both pieces of software are fantastic, but with Zbrush now under control of Maxon I am going to start concentrating on 3DCoat for things it is good at, I already use blender for everything else.

As a developer you should know that no software is without bugs, that being said I followed your instructions and 3DCoat doesn’t produce the best result possible.

I believe the results you are getting are down to the way you are using 3DCoat and not the software itself (e.g. user error/workflow).

A better workflow might be to do the following:

Launch 3DCoat and select Voxel Sculpting or Surface Sculpting from the launch dialog (I usually use voxel).
You will be placed into the Sculpt room, scale up the monkey head by a large amount (fill say, 50% of viewport) by clicking and dragging the small cube in the widget (in the centre of the screen) then press the “Enter” key once you have scaled it up. I believe this is where you are getting your errors because auto-retopo works best on large models.
In the SculptTree window right click the “monkey” item and select AUTOPO->AUTOPO, you will get the “AutopoParams” dialog appear, set the values to something like in the image below.

monkey-3dcoat1928×1537 279 KB
Let it work its magic.
Once it has retopo’ed, save your mesh by selecting Mesh->Export from the main menu.
Bring it into Blender, this is the result I got.

monkey-blender2620×1646 1.64 MB

Edit: I should add I am uising version: 2022.17

Hope that helps.

Andrew.

NodeX · April 12, 2022, 3:06am

Note: I’m posting this just as a feedback and in order to reply, I’m not seeking help anymore, as I have already made my mind. Thanks all for the help.

@ Sponde

As a developer you should know that no software is without bugs

“no software without bugs” ranges from this:

…to this:
[insert a future video here with a user in love with the software, who never happens to fall on any of the rare bugs, while usability is the best feasible].

The fact is, most of today’s software is too close to the first extreme, due to sloppinessitis (the plague of sloppiness), that’s the problem, as it causes billions of lost user-hours globally, impeding productivity and evolution of humanity in all sectors, not to mention the massive depression and frustration effect.

I believe the results you are getting are down to the way you are using 3DCoat and not the software itself (e.g. user error/workflow).

As a developer I also happen to know how to distinguish between user-error and developer-error, and also between bugs, and workarounds.

That specific procedure out of the many allowed or even suggested by the software itself, didn’t fall on those bugs, and worked with the monkey, but still the auto-retopo function has several issues with demanding objects, both at high and low polygon output:

(with the suggested procedure):

I found the cause of the holes that appeared on the mesh above: the walls of the internal mouth cavity were too close to the cheeks (about 1-2 mm to give a hint about the scale, and the software joined the nearby vertices between the 2 walls(!) then deleted what was inside, creating holes! Here is a close up, look at the thickness of the hole -due to the 2 walls joined by 3Dcoat.

Of course they shouldn’t be so close, and I corrected it, but in other cases it might be needed, and these will be the results:

(output: 100k tris)

3Dcoat joining close walls:

closeup of the hole (notice the thickness):

When I lowered the tris output to 10k, 3Dcoat completely destroyed the eyelids, it put far fewer tris around the mouth, and even …sealed the lips that were too close or were touching each other, while no such problems occurred with QuadRemesher and Zremesher (adaptation to max).

(output: 10k tris)

QuadRemesher / Zeremesher:

QuadRemesher/ Zremesher - eyelids detail:
QR_eyes_detail_10K

3Dcoat - eyelids detail:
new_low_poly_eyes_10K_3Dcoat

Also, as I have mentioned previously, usability is very low for that software – I was struggling even for simple tasks. The software desperately needs usability testing.
And when I imported the version with the holes for the eyeballs, it closed them, which is a limitation in comparison to other software.

Sponde · April 12, 2022, 5:21am

Please understand, I am not defending 3D Coat, I have been using it since it first came out and enjoy using it but I know it has it’s issues like all software and you have to work to its strengths like all other software.

I am glad you found a solution and hope it keeps giving you good results, I offered you a different way of using auto-retopo in 3D Coat because you seemed to be struggling with obtaining decent results hence why I said it was a user error/workflow, I wasn’t trying to belittle you but to give you a way to solve your issue. I have also been a software engineer most of my working life so also understand users having issues using software.

Anyway, I am happy you are now in a good spot with your issue, as an aside I have only ever used zremesher in Zbrush and that also has issues, for me it creates spirals which are a pain to sort out.

Peace.

Andrew.

Prettypicturegirl · April 12, 2022, 6:17am

Hi, while this is focused on a specific topology tool and primarily focused on sculptors, there are folks like me who need topology tools for other purposes.

I’m specifically looking for the most effective and simplest tool (as in automatic with some sort of control) to handle files coming from CAD Software like SolidWorks, Rhino and similar.
Especially with the aim to reduce file size and facet/vertex numbers.

This is not about importing files but focused on getting the geometry treated thereafter.

I invite anyone interested in this subject to hop over to this thread and share your experiences over there.

Thank you.

TheRedWaxPolice · April 12, 2022, 9:19am

CozyBlanket has entered the chat…
https://twitter.com/pablodp606/status/1513500660058234884
Not auto but seems fun lol…

Ratchet · April 12, 2022, 9:33am

People use those retopo from Zbrush and 3D coat in professionnal environment, movies, illustrations, adverts . . .
It may not be as trash as you say.

There is no perfect software for all custom needs.

I can see your first source was photogrammetry like triangulation.
And your mesh has cavity and thin thickness, retopo tools are bad working with such geometry.

As your mesh “interior” won’t be what users will see the most you could make a version of your mesh with closed holes so no cavity.
Retopo will work great that way.
Then just retopo by hand the “interior” or drawing retopo lines in a lower resolution.

Hope it helps.

NodeX · April 12, 2022, 12:43pm

@ Ratchet

People use those retopo from Zbrush and 3D coat in professionnal environment, movies, illustrations, adverts . . .
It may not be as trash as you say.

You refer to statistics to defend quality. Quality cannot be defined by quantity.
Better look at the real reasons, like the choices the users have, and the strength of the core algorithms.

If most complex software is trash usability-wise, and that’s a fact today in my experience (I have to battle with sloppiness on a wide range of tools every day), people will also tend to consider it “normal”, blaming themselves when they get unexpected results, and that trend of under-development and user-unfriendliness encourages more sloppiness from the next wannabe developers.

I can see your first source was photogrammetry like triangulation.

My first source was something I sculpted in Blender, and I enabled triangulation on export, to make it easier for external software.

And your mesh has cavity and thin thickness, retopo tools are bad working with such geometry.

Only bad retopo tools have issues, that has been proved above, and anyone can verify it.
We should reward the good effort, whether it is on a free, or a costly product…
If quality is encouraged, eventually we’ll get it for free too.

As your mesh “interior” won’t be what users will see the most you could make a version of your mesh with closed holes so no cavity.

Impossible for a character that will talk and make expressions.

I have only ever used zremesher in Zbrush and that also has issues, for me it creates spirals which are a pain to sort out.

I haven’t encountered any, thanks for mentioning it.

@ Sponde
No problem, and thanks.

Ratchet · April 12, 2022, 1:34pm

Sure, negative feedback is really necessary to try make things improve.
When it’s bad i say it loudly also, but i learned to never expect too much also as each software has it’s priorities and limits or budget constraints.

From my previous work retopo objects that are not filled or have cavity is a big issue.
I’ll make some quick tests here and share my experience about such complex objects.

Characters interior is never modelized, only mouth mainly.

For characters , perhaps you can first use auto retopo for body mainly, then redo complex shapes using other retopo tools.

Just choose the right tools.

NodeX · April 13, 2022, 9:08am

I’m interested to know how would you do something like this without fully modeling the mouth internally.

BTW, that video you posted is awesome, I had made a complete proper face topology manually a few years back, capable to animate, but I want to make several characters, and not of the simplest kind, so Im trying with auto-retopo correcting only the mouth, and if the face doesn’t animate well, I might return to manual -but I doubt I’ll need to.

Ratchet · April 13, 2022, 9:26am

Exactly, it is what i was saying : “only mouth mainly” meaning the mouth should be the only “interior” part you would need to redo using retopo tools instead after the auto retopo.

Common way is to have both main character and mouth interior aside as separate objects.
Auto retopo the character and use retopo tools on the mouth model and sub models.
Then you’ll be able to animate and do any exagerated expressions.

New 3D coat retopo tools should make such work easy and fast.

Toka · April 13, 2022, 1:01pm

Reading through these posts I think so much of this frustration is about not properly understanding the processes involved in this sort of specialist modelling for animated character assets. You are taking this frustration out on the tools and developers very unfairly I think. There are real living people behind the development of these tools. No complex evolving software is ever going to be totally error free and informed feeback and bug reportring is an important part of the development process. But to me it is mostly looking here like blaming the tools when it is probably the workflow that is most at fault.

Auto topology systems are not a magic do all wand. They are just one tool in a bigger more complex modelling pipeline. If you have eyelids or mouth interiors in your sculpted starting mesh then auto topology is really not going to be the sensible best way to go about this. You need to combine it with other modelling methods too. A little bit of hand edited re topology too and a fair bit of old fashioned precision poly modelling.

The way I am seeing here by trying to get an auto topology system to do a thin sculpted mesh with holes for eyes and mouth is just not a good or optimal and sensible way. Better to covert the mesh to be retopologised into a solid voxelized whole and use that to get an auto topo shell to begin modelling the head asset from. If you want to use auto retopology then first optimise your starting mesh to get the best results. For a deforming character to be rigged you should always really start with a clean tidy topological shell for a face and extrude inward using basic poly modeling and editing tools for building eye sockets and an inner mouth cave.

Most of the more well known and used auto topolgy systems have made huge advances in the last few years. 3D Coat was the first app as far as I know to ever have offered auto re topology. This was the feature that I advised a games studio I was at during the time to adopt it. They used the auto retopology back in version 2.5 extensively then for environment elements.

For most organic forms these system are getting great now across the board and have become a huge time saver. It’s hard surface auto re topology which is the next big challenge to perfect. It might just help now to step back a bit and take some time to go through some advanced character modelling tutorials. I really think this would help a lot. Just take a breather for now and empty the mind a bit. You can’t offer clear feedback on the tools if you are not following an optimal workflow to begin with.

I hope this helps. All the best.

Ratchet · April 13, 2022, 4:25pm

I tested a lot 3D Coat among other tools and it works great already for hard surface, but you have to use a minimum amount of polygons to get good results.
Seems like values was around 5000 minimum and using polycount below 3000 it could produce a model with issues.

And auto retopo won’t replace someone using retopo tools and making their own custom low poly model optimized to their needs, specially when going for lowest polycount for simple mobile games for example.

With new rendering engines starting to be able to handle progressive LOD like UE5 Nanite, you no more need to produce the lowest low poly model under 1000 polygons and the engine will handle itself the level of detail.

Metin_Seven · April 13, 2022, 5:54pm

@watercycles I hope you don’t mind that I renamed the original post’s title a little, as this has turned into an interesting allround auto-retopology thread, and the previous title suggested that 3DCoat’s auto-retopologizer is the best one ever, while this thread shows that this is open to debate.

NodeX · April 13, 2022, 9:13pm

@ Toka

You are taking this frustration out on the tools and developers very unfairly I think. There are real living people behind the development of these tools.

How about the real living people who are tortured daily by the under-developed, lets-make-something-quickly software, who are 1 million times more than the developers?

If you have eyelids or mouth interiors in your sculpted starting mesh then auto topology is really not going to be the sensible best way to go about this.
[…]
It might just help now to step back a bit and take some time to go through some advanced character modelling tutorials. I really think this would help a lot. Just take a breather for now and empty the mind a bit. You can’t offer clear feedback on the tools if you are not following an optimal workflow to begin with.

I decided to experiment with a model that can be found on the net, in order to be able to post the results.

So I downloaded a free human head of 44K triangles that had very good topology:

Then I destroyed its topology by:

subdividing it until it reached 2.8million tris, then
decimated it at 0.25 with x-symmetry and triangulated enabled.
So it became a 707k tris with no topology, like it comes from sculpting.
I deleted the eyeballs, so it became a head with open holes:

Eye close-up:

Then I imported it in Zbrush and I setup Zremesher as shown bellow, while I spent less than 1 minute to draw a few rough curves (with the brush “ZremesherGuides”), to assist it for best results (with x-symmetry on):

When I pressed the “Zremesher” button, I got the following results at 80k tris:

Eye close up:

Now tell me that this mesh which has open holes is impossible to auto-retopo***, and since its re-topology was produced in 2 minutes total it won’t animate properly, and that manual polygon-modeling is worth the effort!

Note, that I’m not even experienced in setting up Zremesher, and most likely even better results can be achieved - for example, one more little curve between the large space above the upper lip.

***I’m not considering the investment of 1 minute for drawing a few curves as “manual” re-topology. I tried it because Zremesher had a problem with that specific model, while it never had any with my sculpted models.

BOTTOM LINE from my experience so far:

Best auto-retopology tool: QuadRemesher, as it is slightly more improved than Zremesher.
Best auto-retopology tool with a little bit of help: Zremesher hands down.

alekba · April 14, 2022, 6:25am

Zbrush have many tools for retopo control. Guides, polygrups, masking. You can use trick, simply make creases on mesh, carve lines ( ruin this beautiful face ), and don’t worry, you will back original when reproject detail. Zbrush use this creases as guide for retopo. Sometime this little trick give nice results.
… and most importatly you can paint polygon density. Scalp and back of head usually don’t need lot of polygons because are in most cases covered by hair or hats, etc.
Now my 1.9 cents…
Whatever auto retopo you use be aware that magic button don’t exist, yet. So make reasonable low poly with good general edge flow. There will be issues on usual places, eyes, nose, lips. But you get for FREE all other. Especially ears… I hate ears
Export this in Blender or whatever software, delete problematic areas and manually retopo this areas. This will take some time… but be modest, you get 80 -90% work for free.

NodeX · April 14, 2022, 9:53am

… and most importantly you can paint polygon density.

Yes, I have tried that, and it works, I didn’t include it to keep intervention low, but it’s only a few seconds more, and a proper balance would give results closer to the original topology above, where mouth area has more density.

In my models, I don’t even have to draw any curves for the eyes, only for the mouth and cheeks.
Obviously this has to do with the way the eyelids are made. Here holes help a lot -the opposite of what people have written on this thread, provided that they have clear edges -that model above had smooth edges instead, and I didn’t deleted the eyeballs in a way that would create sharp edges behind the eyelids.

Export this in Blender or whatever software, delete problematic areas and manually retopo this areas. This will take some time… but be modest, you get 80 -90% work for free.

Agreed, with a small amount of effort, we can have decent results.

That said, Zbrush is not free from sloppinessitis… there are bugs that are left free to mess with the user’s workflow, that range from curves disappearing, to wireframe mode malfunctioning, to crashing.

And BTW, I wasn’t able to find an official community that actual Zbrush members participate, the one that is practically hidden on the Zbrush website, hasn’t any new posts since 2019!
How stupid is that, even from a marketing perspective?
This book comes to mind (highly recommended):
In Search of Stupidity: Over Twenty Years of High Tech Marketing Disasters

Toka · April 14, 2022, 11:39am

I simply tried to point out that if you are designing and building an original character mesh for rigging and animation which is a very technical as well as a creative endeavour. Trying to do it all in an auto re topo system would not normally be the most optimal or sensible way to go about it.

There is no reason to raise the heat unnecessarily. I am guessing most of us here have never met in real life. Never had a coffee or drink together. But we are all real living people as are the developers and creators of these apps. I am also guessing most of us come here because we are enthusiastic Blender users as well as some of these other apps like 3D Coat and ZBrush and we mostly enjoy reading about and talking about them.

We are simply talking about particular tools and work flows within a very specialised field and very specific small specialist niches within all of that. I was having to deal with potential show stopping issues all the time as a CGI technical director on series animation and every hour lost was time and money lost from the schedule. If something is not working one way you try something else. Or if the mind is muddled and fixated in the moment you can hopefully try to go for a short walk or get a coffee outside.

It’s always important to try to keep calm and civil towards others and also try to hold on to a wider sense of perspective and not fall into angry frustration rut. It’s often easier said than done I know. Especially with how difficult the last couple of years have been for so many.

There are very serious scary event’s happing in the world right now. I think we need to remember to be civil to each other more than ever and that we are all mostly just people trying our best.

Take care all.

NodeX · April 14, 2022, 12:50pm

That’s funny to say in a medium (chatting via text) where only a fraction of the emotions can pass, and none of body language, so the most important messages are lost.

I’m not raising any heat at all, I’m just saying things as they are, concerning the industry (never personally) from my own user-experience, and I can prove most of what I’m saying -I already have to some degree.

Now, if there are visitors from the industry here, they should appreciate the honest user feedback by some who say it as-it-is, like myself, for which others pay significant amounts in focus groups etc to have the authentic user perspective (and even then it might not be as authentic), and learn something from that.

In fact, they should appreciate the valuable, time-consuming feedback I have provided about flaws of their software, which can be considered part of debugging for their products, for free.

It’s always important to try to keep calm and civil towards others

I always speak generally, not personally, so you obviously confuse humor and temperament with insult -the smiley didn’t help apparently…

most of us here have never met in real life. Never had a coffee or drink together.

Exactly, another factor of misunderstanding.