I’ve been using blender for 3D for quite some time. But latelly i’ve been experimenting with VSE for HD video editing and noticed that the in every compressed codec the maximum bps we can set is 14000, which i frankly find odd because even SD footage goes almost to 30mbps… Is this a blender limitation or something that can be ‘fixed’? I know I can export every frame and sound and then mix them up, if that’s the only solution, can someone suggest a program for setting up the sequence, that doesn’t have the same bitrate limitation?
Your observation is correct, i.e. the max bitrate that can be set is ~14mbps but this is the delivery codec we’re talking about here. I’m not sure if you realize just how high a bitrate that is. For example, SD DVD video is typically at about 5 mbps (and can go up to 10mbps).
SD footage at 30mbps? Sure, if it is uncompressed or something.
Even the max bitrate for Blue Ray is 25 mbps and that at a full HD resolution which is 6 times more than the SD resolution.
Btw, my 550D records at 43 mbps but that’s 25 fps at full HD.
If you feel that rendering is limiting whatever you want to produce there are two main solutions: #1. render out to a lossless codec such as HuffyUV. In this case, rendering will usually be lightning fast (as it’s not heavily compressed). You can then use some external app (say FFmpeg, Avidemux etc) to encode the original HuffyUV video to a delivery codec of your choice, setting the bitrate to whatever you like. This is the route I usually take and have had no problems with it so far.
#2. render out to lossless image sequences (say pngs) and use an external app to encode to a delivery codec and mux video and audio. This is the highly recommended route which is slower but more reliable.
I’ve really become too sloppy to take it since I’ve discovered that DVDStyler can take intermediate (i.e HuffyUV) videos as input, encode up to 10mbps and spit out the complete DVD file structure. So I can now easily make high quality SD DVDs.
If you need more info please post a more specific question and/or problem.
Thanks for your reply.
I’m using 60D video and I like to have a backup file, compressed, but with the same compression as the original file.
Plus, 14mbits create to many compression artifacts in the out-of-focus areas, it really shows up on a big screen.
I’ve tried exporting with Huffyuv but it only comes out with sound, no video…
Also, is there a way to enconde images+sound in a full video with no bitrate limits?
Thanks
I’ll add a third pipeline to blendercomp’s list: Render original imagery to lossless PNG image sequences; edit footage in the VSE, including adding synched audio if desirable; output from VSE to uncompressed AVI (huge files) using the MPEG output option (e.g., ffmpeg) for audio muxing; encode uncompressed AVI to delivery codec/container of choice with third-party 'ware such as Handbrake (for H.264/MP4) or VirtualDub for (Xvid/AVI). This is OK for shorter projects but you’d need terabyte storage for the intermediate AVI if it’s a longish movie. The benefit is absolute control over all aspects of the process from start to deliverable format.
Not sure how this would fit with editing camera-produced video, which has its own codec/container issues, I’m sure, but for imagery rendered out of Blender it works well enough.
Thank you for your replies, and sorry for bumping the topic but… why does blender, a program that can rival commercial 3d software, has such a bitrate cap? As blendercomp said, blu-ray max quality is 25mbps. This cap limits blender overall end quality.
I’m not trying to ‘bitch’, I simply don’t understand this limit and would like too.
Well…understandable to doubt the “technical prowess” of most users here, since most seem to be teenagers who do things like leave their iPods in their pockets and end up washing them in the laundry.
Uh…sorry but yes this does sound like bitching without a reason.
What exactly is your problem? Three suggestions were posted and they all work without problems.
The only preset that works out of the box with Blender encoding options is DVD. Maybe in the future more presets will be made available. I for one would love to see webm added to the presets. Until then I encode manually.
For the rest you can render out lossless and encode using other apps. Believe me, by allowing this Bleder is really doing you a favor because there are more than two dozen options involved. Using some other dedicated app is really the way to go.
I use ffmpeg for high bitrate encoding but Avidemux and Handbrake can also do a great job. VirtualDub might help if you’re on windoze. I’d highly recommend using BD authoring software if you’re on windoze, both for h.264 encoding and for creating menus (and all that jazz).
Note that the max bitrate for BD is ~25mbps. I’ve rented a number BD disks over the last two years and I routinely check the bitrate. Now, the highest bitrate I encountered was ~18mbps. Even that was a jaw-dropping visual quality experience.
DuLt: If you really don’t want a cap on bitrate, simply write to raw AVI. According to MediaInfo, my intermediates run at about 544Mbps @ 4:3, 1024x768, with a little over a minute of animation ~= 4Gb. Should satisfy your quality jones
I know, it’s a little absurd, but using a bitrate value as a quality benchmark isn’t really the best practice. Yes, high bitrates reduce visual artifacts. But in many cases, those artifacts are below perceptual levels even at much lower bitrates. For example in a project I’m winding up now, I did a number of bitrate comparison tests to determine an optimum value for my client’s uses. Starting at 5Mbps, I stepped the value down to less than 500Kbps. Turns out that visually, the bottom end of that 10:1 test range was not noticeably different, so most of the end product was encoded at 500- or 750kbps, depending on subject matter (which also can affect choice of bitrate). Moral of the story is that more is not always better, nor optimum, particularly when delivery methods are taken into account.
It’s not just about quality, I’m trying to find my own workarounds that cap. I’m just wondering WHY it exists. I’m curious at why the bitrate limit is so low.
I know we don’t need a ultra high bitrate to get decent video quality, but the current video works I’m doing are for my master’s degree in multimedia art. And it’s the kind of work that has to have perfect quality, because a judge may come out of the blue, stop the video, an ask about the techniques used or question the quality, or lack of it.
Seems a pretty succinct statement of your concern, what other factors require a “workaround” of the cap? Which, btw, has been described a number of ways for you, why keep drubbing Blender when alternatives give you all you need and more? Asking “Why the cap?” over and over again won’t conjure an answer, any more than asking why other rather arbitrary value limits exist in Blender and other apps. Because envelopes were made to be pushed?
An educated guess is that it is a leftover from a pre FullHD era (=not so long ago really). In an era when the max DVD video bitrate was at ~10mbps, setting the upper limit to 14mbps, probably made sense.
Nowadays, it’s obvious that, depending on the nature of the source material, 14mbps might not be good enough esp if your delivery medium is BD.
I know we don’t need a ultra high bitrate to get decent video quality, but the current video works I’m doing are for my master’s degree in multimedia art. And it’s the kind of work that has to have perfect quality, because a judge may come out of the blue, stop the video, an ask about the techniques used or question the quality, or lack of it.
If that’s your main concern & 14mbps is not good enough for your purposes, any of the three suggestions made provide real alternatives.
Hmmm… I don’t think DuLt’s question is out of line. I have wondered this question myself and I’m not rendering to BD. (Just trying to keep my compositing w/ live video at original bitrate levels.) If indeed this limit was set pre Full HD days then it is certainly appropriate to question the point of it today. Somewhere I read that a future release will be to handle RED and other high (4K) type media. Certainly the limit will have to be increased.
It really doesn’t matter WHY that some dunderhead (not DuLt) like myself wants to render out at high bitrates, just that it seems to be a limit within the Blender route, i.e. one software solution. I would prefer to do it in Blender than go get another 3rd party software to do the job. One code to rule them all…
One code to rule them all is a source of Evil, just as in rings ;).
Does Blender have decent 2D image-making tools? Not really. So you get Gimp or Photoshop or whatever. Does it have audio editing tools? Not really. So you go get Audacity or what have you. Blender’s video processing options are weak compared to many easily-obtainable utilities. It can only mux via one of its options. It seems to have some difficulty with codec recognition. None of these drawback weaken Blender’s core capabilities, but they do argue for more than a single multi-wrench in your toolbox.
Asking a “Why?” question isn’t dunderheaded at all. Asking it over and over when it’s pretty obvious there is no pat answer, and when multiple alternatives to the issue at hand have been suggested, is just a little dreary.
Ok, so how about taking the lossless route(s) then? Either render to pngs before you start editing or render to lossless after you’re done editing?
If indeed this limit was set pre Full HD days then it is certainly appropriate to question the point of it today.
Sure, but don’t really count on getting any response!
Somewhere I read that a future release will be to handle RED and other high (4K) type media. Certainly the limit will have to be increased.
Certainly. Unless of course you’re taking the lossless route(s) and you’re not really using Blender to encode your materials to a delivery codec.
It really doesn’t matter WHY that some dunderhead (not DuLt) like myself wants to render out at high bitrates, just that it seems to be a limit within the Blender route, i.e. one software solution.
It’s perfectly understandable for me why users request x or y feature. I do that all the time too!
I use Blender as a software solution for most of the stuff I do. For most of the stuff it’s the only solution.
I would prefer to do it in Blender than go get another 3rd party software to do the job. One code to rule them all…
Like chipmasque said, that’s the source of all evil!
Hi! I faced the same issue. The only workaround I found was to set the max bitrate to zero(or to one). You get the maximum possible bitrate, like a 100% quality setting, but you have no control at all. I got footage at 107 mb/s while I wished it was only 50 mb/s. Blender tends to be a Pro application. I hope someone will remove that 14000 limit as it is a non sense. My final target is not CD/DVD nor Blue-Ray but my fellow editor which wants animations with 100% quality setup.
Then render to raw AVI and forget about setting any bitrate limit whatsoever, as it’s the only video format option that does not employ some sort of compression, which reduces “quality” because it’s lossy. Setting a codec to not compress is a rather useless step, since codecs are intended to compress. Better yet, render to PNG format as an image sequence. Many editing apps accept these directly, or you can make proxies for editing, but in any case your renders will have 100% possible quality. For more complex scenarios where multiple layering is needed for compositing or the like, use Open EXR.
The point is that I am not the final user, I have to deliver the material in a certain format and that is either Animation codec with alpha channel, either h264 with a separate alpha matte. Many problems could be solved by simply removing the 14k limit. And why is that limit, what is the reason for it? Who is loosing what by removing that limit or it is a patent related issue? Is that hard to remove that 14k limit?
OK, now you’re talking specifics, which helps in terms of finding solutions. First, the Animation codec is a bit outdated and esoteric, designed for imagery having broad areas of flat color like certain types of 2D cel animation. Since it uses RLE encoding (lossless compression), it’s not that efficient at compressing imagery that has graduated tonalities, which describes the vast majority of 3D animation. h.264 is a very versatile codec standard, but it is not lossless, so “100% quality” will not be possible even at very high bitrates. Video compression, unless designed to be lossless (and h.264 is not) will always result in data loss; the better codecs are designed to make this visually negligible and to give options for trading off file size and playback ease with best possible visual quality.
If you must have very high bitrates for h.264 encoding, I suggest you take look at Handbrake, an Open Source utility that does very good h.264 encoding with many, many options, and can save to a number of different container formats. I’ve only encountered the Animation codec as a Quicktime Pro option, but its limitations make it a second choice (imo) to high-bitrate h.264 despite it using lossless RLE encoding. It was never very good to my imagery when I was using QT Pro years back.
As far as “Why the bitrate cap in Blender?” – it’s been said over and over, there is no definitive answer to that question. It is what it is, so you either live with the cap, or find alternatives like Handbrake. Angsting out over “Why?” does absolutely no good whatsoever. If it’s that big a deal, look into building your own Blender without the cap, or maybe find someone to do that for you. Off-the-shelf Blender is not the only Blender that can be obtained.
