I like teaching blender to my friends, and because of my online community I have many friends who need to use blender. The annoying thing is how much I need to also teach how to babysit blender, how to double check it’s not doing something you didn’t intend to prevent losing hours of time fixing problems that accumulate into little disasters. I can’t think of many examples at the top of my head but here’s a few pain points that I’d love to see addressed:
Undo steps by default should be max 256.
If snap to symmetry could be improved slightly I could stop explaining the dangers and the unintuitive way to use it. I always have to say: Run snapToSymmetry action twice and make sure the 2nd time the message at the bottom, which is difficult to find, says 0 changed. If that is not 0, that means there’s a vetex confused and blablabla on and on over and over I have to explain this. It is an important action for the work my friends and I do.
Fix: simply have the snap to symmetry action also check for confused vertices and report it.
Ok, time to enter sculpt mode. Oh did you regularly enter edit mode to snap to symmetry? Because the more you sculpt without snapping the more chance that you will get “confused vertices”. And it can get so bad that sculpting ruins symmetry (where snapping no longer helps) after just one mouse click of sculpting in certain cases.
Why not just use mirror modifier? Because you can’t effectively sculpt the middle vertices. Can this be fixed or an option added? Sculpt mode should not change behavior just because there’s a mirror modifier.
It should behave exactly as if I hit x symmetry without the mirror modifier… Well that’s the usual use case anyway.
Snap to symmetry is the biggest problem for me teaching blender and other symmetry issues. Symmetry should just work. Undo should just work.
Why not just go with symmetrize? It makes a perfectly symmetrical mesh with no problems. I usually run it right before breaking symmetry, but maybe your workflow doesn’t work well with this feature?
The default amount of Undo Steps corresponds to a trade off to avoid too much memory consumption.
I don’t see an issue to explain to newbies that if they need more ; they have to increase that number.
In terms of teachability, that makes more sense to keep at a calue where limit is noticeable rather than increasing it to avoid the subject.
The warning about Snap To Symmetry is updated in status bar, if you update value in Last Operator panel. It is still visible in console.
Nobody needs to re-run the operator.
And there is no issue about sculpting middle vertices with a mirror modifier, when you enable Clipping option, Merge option is already enabled by default.
You just have to understand that only one side of the mesh can be sculpted, to avoid to push vertices in the wrong side.
But if you did it to the point of obtaining an overlapping ; you can still bisect.
Why are you uselessly justifying the way blender is? I ALWAYS run into the undo limit. I NEVER run into memory limit. Your rebuttal? Please enlighten me where there is a trade off.
Does blender crash if you run into a memory limit?
How about implementing a warning?
How about ANYTHING BUT THE WAY IT CURRENTLY IS?
anyway this is a useless thread apparently since none of my concerns are warranted. Thanks!
I shouldn’t have to tell a newbie to increase undo steps! They will be running into issues before they get to me.
Please do not tell me I’ve been using blender for years and apparently mirror modifier is perfect in sculpt mode. WTF.
I seriously cannot believe you are justifying limiting undo steps as if it’s some teaching opportunity. What program has this mentality? NONE. Stop making things up to justify the way Blender is!
Really nobody needs to rerun the snap to symmetry. Really… really… really… ok. Cool you know everything I know nothing. That is the conclusion.
Please lock this thread. Please just fucking lock thjis thread. I’ll complain only when I have absolute conclusive video evidence, that’s the only way I’ll be taken seriously apparently.
It’s a default setting that strikes a compromise. You can increase it. Not really a limitation. More steps mean higher memory usage / expectations / requirements to run the app, so that’s what was decided. Lot’s of defaults aren’t going to be what you wanted, that’s the way things usually are, especially with something like Blender where it is capable of doing all kinds of “un-default” types of tasks.
I can clearly see that you’re upset, but acting out in anger towards people just pointing things out to you is not productive. People are less inclined to hear you out if you’re swearing and accusing them of not taking you seriously. They’re not only trying to give you solutions, but also are just pointing out the compromises of default settings.
I recommend coming back to this thread when you’ve had time to let out your frustrations and have a clearer head.
Crashes are rare.
But lagging because of that, is a very frequent complaint about sculpting and rendering performances.
Now. We are just talking, sharing views. You are right that computers performance improved and undo performance was improved too, along the years. The default may be increased.
That is not because I said something. That developers will not agree with you and your demands will be rejected.
That is not what I wrote.
I am just saying that issue with mirror modifier, in sculpt mode, is not middle vertices.
It is rather the fact that only one half of the model (original one) is responsive.
But that is a known limit, proper to all Generate modifiers, not just Mirror.
Seriously. I think that you are probably teaching them about undo or user preferences ; before they are confident to do 256 steps without using it, and require to use Undo History or Repeat History to go this far.
At some point I created a script that would allow me to double check all of my settings, as moving from version-to-version it would be really a pain to go through each setting manually. [ Then I started adding many things and lost the core idea – which is to change a few simple settings. ]
As for example you could do something like this:
import bpy
C = bpy.context
C.preferences.edit.undo_steps = 128
Then keep adding more and more settings in every possible place you need to. Is not exactly the best idea but at least is the most direct, you get all settings changed in one-go without any misunderstanding.
FWIW Blender does have issues with keeping the symmetry in sculpt mode. It’s not much of a problem when you’re still on the concepting/modeling stage, because you can always run a symmetrize operator, or delete half and add a mirror modifier to fix any issues.
But when you already have a symmetrical model that’s UV mapped and rigged, using sculpt mode to move just a couple of vertices to create a shapekey will in 99% of the times fuck up the symmetry, even if one vertex gets moved 0.000001 more in one side than the other, then after that any other operation that relies on symmetry (like weight painting) will fail.
That’s when the Snap to symmetry option is the only saviour, as long as you realize what’s happening on time. We had that happen SO MANY times at work that we had to instruct the artists to avoid using sculpt mode for shapekeys completely.
I even asked about the issue a few times on devtalk and blender chat, the answer from the devs/artists at the Blender studio was basically “yeah we know it’s not working correctly, because sculpt mode symmetry has precision issues. But there are workarounds”…
I have more faith in mirroring a duplicate of shapekey, limiting them through vertex groups and recreating a new one from mix, than using Snap To Symmetry operator.
That seems more fastidious. But that can be turned into a macro.
I am never satisfied by Snap to Symmetry.
I would always prefer to use snapping tools with constraints or 3D Cursor to restore a symmetry manually, than trying to use it.
Well yeah, that’s also a workaround, but it doesn’t change the fact that sculpt mode will fuck up your symmetry in ways that are not obvious, so you only realize after a while, which is also why OP is complaining about undo steps, it all adds up.
Yes, but we are humans and sometimes make mistakes.
Sometimes we are too entranced in a project and then realize that at some point we changed something that we shouldn’t have and would love to have back. So yes, even though I use incremental saves a lot, it is not rare for me to also need to having to backtrack something, save as a copy, and get back to the present.
And I assume I’m not alone in this.
Many times in this sorts of threads we find many “experienced” users trying to teach the “proper” way to use Blender instead of listening on why a new user feels the way they do about the software.
Why do they make the decisions they make? Is it people that are just used to how other common software works? To how other 3D/DCC software works? Or are they really just disoriented because the defaults only make sense to us that are used to it/have long term experience with it?
I honestly would prefer the software lags than irreversible lose work that I, accidentaly, changed. And noobs definitely would too.
PS: nobody presses Undo 200 times, they just go to the list and try to find the operator that caused the change.
Well obviously having the software being super slow wouldn’t help and then we’ll be complaining about performances
Blender needs to find a good balance so it works on every computer, doing sculpts on an old pc will give a different memory / undo limit than doing lowpoly on a modern hardware.
Hahahaha well I don’t want to sound lecturing people, but there are also good habit that you get with time.
The thing is that I don’t work with sculpt so maybe my approach won’t work there.
The way I see it : experimenting is fully part of the creative process, you can’t do the right thing from the first try, that’s not how things work. Undo is like a safety net and should give room and confidence for exploration. In the meantime we have to organize our work in a way that allows to improve incrementally and relying solely on undo isn’t a good workflow IMO . Personally I do incremental saves when I feel I reached a key point. I also do a lot of backups within the file. So if I’m about to do something risky I just work on a copy of my mesh. Segmenting and doing one thing at a time also help to progress incrementally.
The bottom line is that while I iterate a lot I don’t often use undo.
I rarely go to backup either, but I sometime screw up something and I need to dig 2 days back to find something working. Again Undo is just one tool but having a good workflow is also a tool in the iterative / creative process !
Don’t be lazy. Think about what you are doing, it will be fine. If you work on something and you have some version of it that you think you might want to come back to just save that to a separate file. That’s not software, that’s common sense. Nothing can help with this if you just don’t think about it. I am a huge fan of solving problems where they are. Because if you try to solve a problem in a different place then it actually exists in you will fail. Software cannot solve problems that exist in your head. If you are disorganized, software will not solve it. The problem is not in the software then. If it can help, that’s great, but the true solution usually lives somewhere in your own attitude towards your work that you do, so blaming some software for it is weak in my mind. As a rule that’s just not helpful. Not only with Blender, but with everything in general. There must be a line somewhere where software can not hold your hand through it. I think it’s mostly in the right place with Blander. It’s fine. Use common sense, it will be fine…
@sozap@MartinZ you guys are assuming that everyone is always in the right state of mind when working on something. It might be pressure (external or internal), mental health issues, or whatever, but I make mistakes for these and other reasons (and I asume other humans too).
I work with Blender since 2.45. I save progress when I feel like I’m doing a big change. Many of my projects have more than 20 incremental saves. I don’t need lectures on how to work. Maybe you guys have perfect minds, but I do not, and having many Undo steps has saved my arse many times.
I will concede, though, that when starting, the work you do, it often isn’t worth much saving and not much will be lost. Because, lets be honest, unless you are extremenly talented, you won’t be doing anything exceptional or unique.
But! many people start learning Blender through school and college assignments, so losing that kinda work is extremely frustrating.
Yes, learning good practices is necessary and very important, but I have yet to encounter lag when having 256 steps enabled (granted, I don’t do sculpting).
Well, I think you are right to use blender like it suits you. Blender comes with defaults that are ok but far from perfect for everyone.
Also you reached a point where you know how to do 3D and while it’s ok to discuss different ways of working, I didn’t wanted to explain you how to do it.
That said, there are definitely habits you learn with time. For instance before actually working in 3D I didn’t took much organisation into account. Then I learned to build stuff in a way that they are easy to change depending on what clients might throw at me.
Eventually I also learned to organize for collaborative work and so on…
That’s some stuff the software can help by providing tools, but you have to learn how to make the best out of it and I believe 3D is learned a lot by failing.
There is always room for improvement to make blender simpler to use, but at some point we have to adapt to it.
For instance blender is generally very stable, at some point I could work for hours without saving. But if electricity went out I loose my work. This happened to me a few times and now I save without realizing it, and I’ve setup my autosaves in a way that they can recover from electricity loss.
I can blame blender for not taking that into account by default, or just assess that it’s my responsibility to configure it properly.
In that matter I tend to agree with @MartinZ, at least I think blender make steps toward simplification and ease of use, and as users we have to accept that it’s complicated software. Even when you start your journey, it’s obviously difficult but we survived it ?
I almost never needed more than 10-20 undo steps when working in blender and now I’m curous what kind of stuff you guys are deleting to need to timetravel so far to recover.
