Character neck bending issues

[GroundedAura]

I have been working on a character model for quite a while, over a year at least, but I’ve been having a lot of trouble trying to make it work how I want. I know what I want and can picture it, but haven’t been able to execute it, and it’s driving me insane. I don’t have any Blender modeling and/or rigging friends, so I’ve had no idea who or where to ask for help.

To explain, I’ve been designing creatures for a creature collector game I’d like to make. The creature in question that has been giving me trouble is based on the Mexican Mole Lizard. The problem I’ve been having is making the neck and head bend how I want it to. I’ve had to remake the model multiple times and make the neck longer than I want it to be so there is a clean bend without any clipping or creases. However this neck extension, and resultant bend, don’t look how I originally designed it (you can see what I mean when you compare the sketch with the current model screenshots). I was going to go with it since I couldn’t figure out how to make the initial design work, but the resultant pose this makes doesn’t give off the vibes I want the design to give; It’s now hunched over and looks weird, especially so for its evolutions.

I do apologize if this appears to be me venting/ranting. That is not my intention. Like I stated earlier, I’ve been trying to get this to work for a long time and I’m at my wits end. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[GroundedAura]

[joseph]

Seems like it would be easier to model the head in this “bent position”, then make a different model if needed for the “neck straight”. Since this is for a game anyway, it doesn’t matter if you use multiple models - it’s actually quite common. My reasoning is, your head bent and and straight poses have no logical relation to each other. Technically speaking your head bent pose has the head completely disconnected from the spine- not that it matters, it looks good, but you’re not going to be able to have a single rig that can do both. That or you could disconnect the head and have it be a separate mesh

[revolt_randy]

Hello and welcome aboard!

So tell me about this character. What’s the end result here? Is it going to be used in a game engine? And how is it going to be used in the game engine? Your sketch shows an upright body with the head facing forwards, is that the ‘rest’ pose of the character?

If so, then that is how the character needs to be modeled instead of the straight head and body as shown in your first image. Then you need the good edge loops around the head/neck area, something like this

With edge loops where my yellow lines are, it shouldn’t be too hard to rig and get it to deform correctly.

But then again, what is the desired look? If you’re going for Pixar quality in Unreal engine, this is the route to take. If you are going for an 8-bit Minecraft style game, then

@joseph

Since this is for a game anyway, it doesn’t matter if you use multiple models - it’s actually quite common. My reasoning is, your head bent and and straight poses have no logical relation to each other.

So what is the end use?

Randy

[GroundedAura]

Thanks for the reply. I guess I should’ve added more context with all the questions your asking. I’m just a desperate to find a solution to this issue. Like I said in the post, I plan on using it in a creature collector game, a Pokémon-like. And very much like Pokémon games and other creature collectors, this and many other creatures are used in battle against one another.

I won’t go into too much overall detail as not to overwhelm. These creatures are called Avauras (Avatar + Aura). All of them are part of 3 stage lines, called an Avaura Species, and each named design is a Stage Avaura (this term can be simplified as an Avaura). All Avauras can have one or two Aspects that give them their weaknesses and resistances, much like Pokémon types.

This specific Avaura is named Ossirow, its Aspect is Terra, and is the base stage of the Grave Lizard species. It lives in badlands and graveyards spinning its spoon-like shovel tail to dig underground. Since its shovel is too small for it to dig the most effectively, it digs through the earth moving backwards. As I said in the initial post, its based on the Mexican Mole Lizard but it’s also based on the phrase “Digging your own grave” and skeletons. Its suppose to look like the upper half of a body sticking out of a grave with a gravestone behind it. I should also mention that it’s one of the starters you can choose at the start of the game.

As for the game engine, I plan on using Godot. I’d like the model to be optimized enough to work on semi-older hardware but still look good for non-game animations. Think of it like machinimas: using in-game assets to make animations. The pose in the first image is it at full length. I did it this way as to make sure it’s size is exactly correct. I wanted the model to be as flexible and useable in any situation: it sticking out of the ground when in battle, able to slither around when out of the ground, able to express various emotions and look around, etc. I know this might not be the smartest way to do this, but it’s what my mentality and thought process has been since college.

When in battle and idle, it’s head is bent like in the sketch but straightens out its neck when diving underground. Recoiling from taking damage is another form of needing to have its neck straighten out.

The image you drew the edge loops does have those edge loops and is already deformed by its armature. However, that image is of the design with the neck extension that I wanted to avoid. Images 5 and 6 is my most recent remodeling attempt and is what my intention is for it to look like, just like the sketch (image 7).

If I can get this to work for Ossirow, I can use the same method to help model its evolutions.

[joseph]

@GroundedAura

I wanted the model to be as flexible and useable in any situation: it sticking out of the ground when in battle, able to slither around when out of the ground, able to express various emotions and look around, etc. I know this might not be the smartest way to do this, but it’s what my mentality and thought process has been since college.

Yeah… you’re going to want to get of this mentality. It’s extremely rare that one single model , especially for a highly complex organic form, can cover all possible use cases. If you go look at models from actual Pokémon games, I think you’ll be surprised to learn that they’re not all one watertight mesh, but most of them are broken up into multiple models that have multiple variations that the game engine pulls in as the situation requires. Since you’ve replied only to Randy and not me, I don’t think it’s likely you’re going to take this advice, but all I can do is try

[GroundedAura]

I do apologize for not replying to you initially. I was writing up one when Randy responded. I did need another 3D modeler to tell me this though. Like I said, been stuck with that mentality since college back in 2020. Trying to get this all to work has fried my brain and made me stray away from modeling and animating. Again, thank you!

[digitvisions]

Hi, the other option for you would be to model the character with the head strait like you will model a snake and rig with a tail like rig. i used rigify tail rig in this example:

[revolt_randy]

Yeah, as mentioned, if you can use 2 models, then that is the route to take. One model where the character is flat - like the first image you posted, and one with the head at a 90 degree bend like your second image. That would cut down on the total amount of rotation the head has to make with only using 1 model.

To fix problems like the creases in the neck of some of your images, you’d probably want to look to using shape keys to fix the creases. Basically, shape keys let you change the mesh by moving vertices around. Your game engine should support them and probably calls them “blend shapes”.

I noticed in the first image, the flat long character, that you have a lot of bones for the body. You probably need all those bones to get smooth deformation, but you don’t want to be animating that many bones. You might want to be looking at a splineIK setup for that. Basically, the splineIK puts a chain of bones on a curve, then you control the curve’s control points. So instead of posing 20 bones, you might only need 5 bones.

Randy

[GroundedAura]

I hope this isn’t necroposting, but I’m still having trouble with this. I haven’t had time to do 3D modeling but have recently. I’ve tried multiple methods but I haven’t gotten anything to work. Also having trouble trying to figure out when models would be swapped when going with some of the recommendations posted here. Personally I would love to have some 1-on-1 help with someone, but I don’t know or think this is the best place to ask for something like that. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[revolt_randy]

Post up a .blend file and I’ll take a look at it. Before posting the file, create an animation with the character posed in it’s most extreme poses. So when pressing the space bar, an animation plays of the character going from one extreme to the other.

I won’t be around much, but maybe others can look at it as well…

Randy

[GroundedAura]

Okay. As a heads up, the .blend file is of my most recent attempt at getting the neck to work. It’s only the rigged head and another unrigged one in the more standard position it would be in with its topology modeled to be set like that.

I greatly appreciate the help. As I tried different ideas, I noticed more issues that would have to be dealt with; such as the inside of the mouth clipping into the neck when the mouth opens. If you hadn’t responded I was going to move straight on to redesign the character a bit and rethink how it’s neck and head would bend. I have a feeling that even if a solution or method is found its going to be far too complex and intricate to be viable. But still, I want to give this design one last shot.

Once again, thank you!

Ossirow V6.blend (1.5 MB)

[digitvisions]

Hi, there wasn’t enough edge loops on the neck and no wights on the neck, i also divided the neck bone and add sub’D to allow a smooth bend.
Here is the file. i hope this was what you wanted you can tweak this if needed.
Ossirow V7.blend (1.6 MB)

[digitvisions]

Here is another version more refined to have a sharper bend, BTW you still have the mirror modifier on the mesh.

Ossirow V8.blend (1.6 MB)

[GroundedAura]

I apologize if any of this comes off as demeaning or condescending. That’s not my intention but I can’t figure out anyway that doesn’t sound like that.

I appreciate your assistance in this issue. But no, this is not what I’ve been looking for. The head when bent down should look exactly like the non-rigged head in the file. Both versions you made have the head sticking out too far; if you look at the first images I sent in this post, I already had a version like that. I’ve been also trying to avoid any creases as that’s what I was taught in college plus the lighting bugs out in those areas. I also didn’t have a Subdivision Surface modifier since this model is going to be used in a game and I’m aiming for a lower poly count. At least it sort of tells me that my topology and edge loops are good lol.

---

As I’ve been trying to get this to work and seeing your guy’s takes on it, I’ve come to a conclusion: I didn’t fully think through enough how the head should work and been too focused on trying to get it to look exactly like my original drawing (which I didn’t initially share due to making some changes like eye size and proportions). Here’s the original art so you guys can understand what I mean and can compare it to the sketch I shared earlier:

I’ll also share the art of its evolutions, Skullvul:

And Skellrave:

I also didn’t deeply study how the animal its based on is skeletally structured. Definitely shows that made some assumptions when I initially made it a few years ago. I’ll share some images for reference. Like I said in an earlier post, one of it’s main bases is the Mexican Mole Lizard:

I feel like I’ve wasted all your guy’s time with this pursuit… Sorry…

[digitvisions]

@GroundedAura

I feel like I’ve wasted all your guy’s time with this pursuit… Sorry…

You haven’t waisted our time, this is a learning curve. I think you can over come this head shape by covering the soft body with hard casing to shape the neck area the way you want it. You shouldn’t give up.
Shape the neck with hard surface like in your art:

[joseph]

Earlier I mentioned that you can’t get the poses you want with just bones and will need to use shapekeys. This is still the case

[revolt_randy]

@digitvisions

I think you can over come this head shape by covering the soft body with hard casing to shape the neck area the way you want it.

How’s that hard casing going to act when the character looks upward or is parallel to it’s body?

@digitvisions

You shouldn’t give up.

Agreed!

@joseph

Earlier I mentioned that you can’t get the poses you want with just bones and will need to use shapekeys.

Yes, I’d be looking into shapekeys, provided:

@revolt_randy

Your game engine should support them and probably calls them “blend shapes”.

Sorry I haven’t looked at the file yet…

Randy

[revolt_randy]

I wrote my last reply in a hurry as I was leaving to go to work today. As I mentioned, how’s that helmet going to work when the character’s head is straight with it’s body? The helmet would still have a 90 degree bend to it and would cut into the body…

During my commute to work I was thinking about this. If you use shapekeys, or any other method to go from head straight with body to head bent 90 degrees, the faces in that area are going to change their shape.

No big deal unless you have an image texture (or any other kind) mapped to the character. So if you have an image mapped for the character to show the scales of the real life animal, the scales will change their size as the faces change.

BTW, I am working on a serpent creature, but it will never have to bend sharply at any point in it’s body.

Just my thoughts,
Randy