Therahedwig
Yeah if you push that to its extreme you’ll land in fallacy country. All you need to do is getting pissed and then say: Well if YOU can do it better, than show me! :ba:
I say this every time a similar point is brought up. Feedback and substential critique are not equal to negativity.
It is also a major difference who gives the feedback. Feedback is important but also needs to be given in a respectful and positive manner. In that regard good criticism is a very valuable thing because it actually isn’t as common to find a good combination of politeness and (expert) knowledge.
I don’t say this in direct reply to you specifically since I think you actually meant it that way. You just happen to bring up one of my pet peeves with the whole subject.
An art teacher of mine was one of these guys who thought that in order to make good art you apparently need to suffer and be a condensending, miserable jerk. In hindsight he was one of those. Also in hindsight he was NOT one to give good expert feedback, either. He had experience but not in the right ways, actually. Many of my classmates who became really good in their field say the same thing: It tookway too long - often years to get the bad habbits and feedback he gave to us out of their system before they were able to actually see and learn good form.
Give criticism if you feel you actually see a thing to improve. But don’t just point out the negative aspects and blow them up like thw whole work consists only of them. If you say something negative give hints what you think needs improvement. And for the one recieving the criticism as well as for the one to give it: Just because criticism is voiced does not mean it has to be incorporated.
TL;DR - don’t be an ass just because feedback!
I have two type of students
Type A: the student asks for feedback to know where the work is lacking and where it can be improved
the person I can address quite directly pointing out what does not work and how to do it better
the student will take that advice, evaluate it, experiment and execute my direction or through the process
arrive at a different but equally improved level
this is the type of student I consider I am not teaching but working with
Type B: the student that when asking me for feedback wants a pad on the shoulder for the work they did
they are more interested in emotional gratification than learning where to do better
providing them with good feedback that helps them to grow is hard - because you have to package it well
so that they do not get discouraged
suggestions or feedback might be evaluated and followed but chances are very hight they don’t because for
them it is too much work and they don’t realize that doing the work is what makes them become designers
and not me giving a lecture
in terms of feedback they seem to also need to be provided steps how to do it better - telling them something
does not feel right is a design problem they often cannot solve
this is the type of student you have to baby sit till they grow up and realize that their future is in their own
hands - if they can make that discovery which some sadly do not
I don’t agree with faculty using harsh language - negative views can language wise also be presented in a civilized
and professional manner. I personally appreciated the tone my professors in Germany did. Very direct and fact based.
Here in the USA I have to be a lot more diplomatic which in the long run rather hurts student because it is a soft type
of baby sitting.
Through the years I found away to provide critical feedback by making students aware of that it is their own work
and that they have to take ownership of their future and not ask for my thumbs up. Some still fall through the cracks
but I saw others once they realized what it means to be a student (this is not high school) took ownership and turned
180 degree.
Most rewarding moment ever.
A child can spot a flaw,
A artist knows how to fix it,
A master will find the style inside themselves.
Critique is input,
Good or bad,
if you don’t agree with something this is fine,
Trying to understand why they feel the way they do, may help you understand yourself.
Empathy is a valuable skill as an artist and otherwise.
This is very very true !!!
I can’t control whether or not my opinions will be taken as offensive or objectionable. But I can be truthful or constructive without being a smart-arse. Especially when dealing with people from multiple cultures, or age groups. If a person doesn’t care enough to consider that when posting criticism, or replies, then it might be better to ignore them.
I have no problem throwing in a “nice work” as encouragement. But I don’t think it’s helping anyone to praise behaviour or practice that clearly isn’t working. I try to be truthful and hope that comes across. But I think on a personal level it’s important for everyone involved not to make assumptions. Not to assume that people know your intent.
Good points. I teach at Wayne State and we have people from all over the world. And there is some truth to respecting other cultures as well as not doing that too much.
When I started teaching I was still pretty much influenced by my upbringing in Germany and also the German design school and how we speak about our work. While I used English words the structure clearly was still German - which sometimes did not sit well with students because they thought I was arrogant or rude.
There is an idea to always say something nice first about the project and then provide critical feedback to prevent students from being discouraged. And I first that this was a silly idea but then realized that during my competitive archery time when counting our hits we
should always count the good hits first and then the bad once simply for the reason of an emotional impact on you.
It is pretty much about balance packaging a objective comments into nice format without overly being too nice but also not being too harsh.
Over the years I managed to do that - it takes some practice and a lot of self control (self-control when you want to explode but should not).
If a student’s work is just not good enough either because the student does not work enough or is not talented enough you should
instead of making them feel bad about it and punish them, make them scared about it by pointing out that others put more work in
and thus will advance faster and thus later when graduating get the job. The trick is put the attention back onto the responsibility
and ownership of the student - it is their future - they don’t do the work for you.
If a student is too shy to present in front of students then sorry you have to learn it because getting feedback is also a skill they need
to learn and in the business world presentations can be drastically more rude than in academia.
Students are/seem to be also notoriously shy to provide real feedback.
Cultural preferences are good but sometimes I am curious if we don’t obey them too much. Particularly in the US trying to be nice
and polite can sometimes go to far when it becomes a face you hide behind. You have to step in front and make your argument.
And some students don’t want feedback - some just want nice words they want to get gratification.
Well there is a saying “You cannot force a horse to dring water”. Some students/artists need time to grow and mature.
We not only grow in our artistic skill but with out work and experience also our personality grows and matures.
I saw students who I considered lost causes pulling it around at one point.
One guy he really did not get even the easiest CAD app was later helping students learning it. At one point bang it made click.
Plus in addition his project was pretty spot on and fitting - not very complex - students laughed about the project yet they were
not happy when I gave them not a better grade because they put more more into it. They just over designed stuff which was
equally bad. Work isn’t a grade - quality design is.
Another one did not get CAD at all and it took him roughly a year for things to settle and then he sky rocketed. I am happy about
having meet them because it also taught me never to give up and give everybody a fair chance. Today he and I work well
together - he is very self motivated, learns a lot by himself, and constantly refines his work and thus grows.
Kinda funny how one of the weakest students became one among the better once while too many still think of homework as
stuff they have to do for me while he understands that homework is just a direction for him to explore and constantly work on
because the outcome will define his skill set.
If there is one thing after all this I would summarize being valuable for giving and receiving feedback then this:
Stay objective on both sides, the person receiving and the person providing feedback
Nice haircut, cekuhnen! On another note…
Sounds like the compliment sandwich…
Students are/seem to be also notoriously shy to provide real feedback.
Obviously, you’re in a position of power within that little bubble of yours, so you can’t expect honest feedback.
Since I’m not your student, I can honestly tell you:
You need to stop putting line breaks in the middle of sentences.
Dumb post is dumb
When it comes to critiquing pieces, 5 main points come to mind.
- When providing critical feedback on the flaws, give them a hint on what they can do to improve that area, don’t just say the quality sucks and leave it at that
- Also point out what the person did right, chances are they need pointers in just a few areas to really bring their work to the next level.
- Don’t be afraid to critique if you can see something (even if it might be something minor). Don’t just blindly praise the work unless there’s literally nothing that so much as feels off.
- Be patient with people who don’t take kindly to critical feedback right away, as oftentimes they might be swayed to an extent
- Recognize the overall style and intention of the work and be aware that what might be a flaw at first could be intentional. If you’re not sure, ask the artist if they intended something in the piece to be that way (and don’t critique them on that unless it’s obvious they are trying to skimp on quality and effort).
Of course, there’s always the minority who don’t take anything that’s not praise well (I used to be one of them), but ultimately I realized that in many cases they were trying to help me (so some might get it even if it will take several years).
many factors to consider
Language limitations / translation
many times the question is vague and does not mean what OP is thinking to do
so have to more or less guess what the real problem is before answering.
Level of the OP -
first time ever trying to make miracles with nothing very fast - expectation is high here
but have to come down to earth a little !
also level of knowledge in 3D CG software
basic
inter
beginning of advance
also don’t forget that
don’t think any one his a super master of everything in BL
or some might have the illusion of it but they are dreamers
just have to be a little diplomat to answer it in a positive way
Bad negative critics is totally useless and a loss of time for every body
does not go anywhere in any case.
so need patience and time to help
happy bl
@cekuhnen, that was very interesting to read. Feedback is always a difficult topic. Within a group, cultural differences can make a huge difference, just like the individual personalities and the position of power. Creating a constructive feedback culture is tremendously difficult. I am working in an international team and I believe it is even more complicated to achieve that in an educational environment.
I found through out the years feedback giving and receiving has to removed from any personal preference or such. It should and has to be objective - for both.
Students have to realize that as a student your work is not perfect and it is flawed. But that is ok because you are in the process of learning it hence why you study design or art. Particularly today in the USA - sorry for sounding negative but it is the truth - students based on how they were treated, nourished, and spoiled during K-12 expect more an emotional instant gratification rather than a factual tell me how to get more awesome.
Faculty however also have to get over their frustration and not give into negativity, shame students, or use bad language when expressing criticism.
I could tell a student that the work sucks and that it is a wast of my time. But I could also instead of making that comment ask the student if the student thinks the work is sufficient, if the student really did their best work, and if the student think with the presented work and what they learned by creating it really where using their time the most effective way so that they later when graduating are mature and well educated.
When I started teaching I used in some rare situations the first approach which well never really worked out. Even with some of the most childish works I saw a college student telling me that he in high school did not learn how to write a project documentation and after 2 weeks of work gave me a text in which he wrote things like: Then Claas told me this and I did this and then for Claas bla bla bla.
In Germany everybody would have laughed at that person making such a poor excuse. Jesus you are in college and cannot write a text about what you did with and for the project and how it evolved? Worse when not knowing what to do you failed even to ask Claas for input and rather decided to work off the assignment without making sure it actually fits the requirement …
My emotional frustration was more than justified but still highly unprofessional. I also showed weakness in leadership and if a bad student is there then the fault is in the university allowing the student to be admitted to the program - you cannot blame the student.
But over time I grew up. Teaching is hard business if you want to do it well. And today when students ask me for my opinion I often ask them first to tell me what they think. Instead of giving into instant gratifications and well done I force students to be self reflective.
And to be honest sofar that was and is the best approach because students are pretty honest with me. This semester with all my classes there are only two students who give themselves A grades while it is rather maybe a B-. I am stunned that a person thinks they deserve an A when after 3 times asking to produce better grades they still never did revise them. The majority are quite honest simply state if they did not do the best that they could have done better. They explain the reason for why without making an excuse and most important without asking for a better treatment.
That of course than allows me to talk on a more personal level with them. Explaining why the current work hurts them. I don’t have to even say that the work is bad - they know and expressed that themselves already. But by making a reference to good work and why for the sake of their job future they have to and should be interested in getting better and can sneak in the critical feedback and they are receptive to it.
Power interesting topic - I am a team player - if students ask my if I like the work I ask them rather if they like it because it is not about me and my taste preference. Those answers are not ideal for them because there is no clear yes or no but once they understand why I do not give those answers they will understand. I have to teach them to give themselfs that answer.
I actually feel that in education that area can be a lot easier than in the business world. Unlike Beer Baron comments about power you can in academia also set up the relationship of being equal faculty and student. They do not work for me, they work for themselves.
But in the businessworld that is very different you work for a commercial goal.
I always tell my students to be bold and experiment and if something fails well then that is valuable experience to make.
Unlike at a job you cannot get fired - the beauty of academia and being free to explore.
Annoyingly not many realize that.
Good set of points and very valid. Giving good feedback is also an art or skill one has to learn getting good at.
Not sure why my position will influence how a student gives a different student feedback.
That is a cultural problem in the USA and has nothing todo with my position as the class is not even about me but for and about the students. Increasingly in recent years is education in the USA focused on scores not thinking. No matter who at what university you talk to the complaints are the same across the nation.
What goes wrong in K-12 is what at college level we have to fix - if we even can because of the structural issues.
And I think that is also what lead to the whole concept of giving good feedback first.
Honestly the idea is also not bad. Something good opens you up to receive something negative.
But the big difference is in what amount this is administered and why.
One other major problem in the US is how teachers are rated later. I always found it interesting yet mind blowing that administrations think that students are qualified and objective enough to provide critical evaluations to faculty. The work that comes out of a class is what should be used to measure the success and not what students think. I as a student thought the wrong things as well.
It is like I would be allowed to rate the medical qualification of my doctor.
We can talk about being on-time to class, if maybe projects are structured well and such but even there students have the issues being brainwashed by the “HighSchool work for a grade” mentality. Making the transition that there are no true or wrong answers and that their future is in their own hands is very hard for students.
So this leads often to that also faculty try to appease to students to get good reviews.
At one institute a private school I got into trouble for not giving enough As. From the administration this was instituted grade inflation because the interest of the administration was more student enrollment and more tuition money.
Faculty are often caught in-between. I love because of that how free schools are in countries other than the USA where tuition is not the funding that keeps the doors open. In Germany schools are 100% tax funded. I want to see a US engineering department that could stomach up to 80% of those who start engineering to be kicked out because they don’t cut it. Even MIT needed to lower admission standards when the economy tanked.
As faculty then being true to your academic responsibility, appeasing the students, and maintaining a strong admission is really a hard if not impossible balance to do. Fortunately I have to say at the current university where I work things are balanced out. Students are honest - even those who send me nasty childish emails later told me that I became one of the most respected faculty because we try to empower students.
We also know that not everybody will work in industrial design - so our goals are different and that influences how we give feedback. we are more open to different outcomes - we don’t have a tunnel view.
At UW-Stout in Menomonie I had the worst and spoiled brats as students. It really showed the cultural difference in those two states while lol they are next to each other - kinda sort of.
I am quite sure if academia would be funded differently also at high school they would focus on something different than test scores a lot would be actually different in how one could give feedback as well.
Glad you like my hair cut and yes I should stop that line break stuff (stupid habit from typgraphy).
See I learn.
Oh, I was talking about the feedback that you get. I somehow assumed you’d be asking for that (i.e.“How do you handle criticism”).
If you’re asking them to criticize their peers, you’re asking them to spend social capital on something that’s actually worthless to them. They may well form an opinion in their heads, but why utter it, if it doesn’t score brownie points? Not a lot to gain there.
It is like I would be allowed to rate the medical qualification of my doctor.
They’re not rating your qualification, they’re rating the subjective experience of being a student of yours.
I want to see a US engineering department that could stomach up to 80% of those who start engineering to be kicked out because they don’t cut it. Even MIT needed to lower admission standards when the economy tanked.
Aren’t you arguing against your own interest there? How many industrial designers are really needed? If they shrunk that by 80%, would you still be needed? You gotta ride the wave of bullshit while you can.
As faculty then being true to your academic responsibility…
Don’t worry about it. Only academics actually care about this. Your students don’t care. Graduates don’t care. Employers don’t care.
Your graduates just want a job. Employers just don’t want a lemon, they’re not keeping track of whether WSU grads are getting worse year-on-year because of lowered standards. Even if WSU had the best name in the world, if one of your graduates showed up, they’d still need to be screened. They’d still need to be trained for the job.
See I learn.
I approve!
That’s indeed a very good practice that is applicable in many situations not only in teaching. When I am responsible for a team, I usually don’t tell them when something went wrong, because they already know it. Asking them what they think about the current progress or whatever the issue is, is sufficient to start an involved discussion. This very often leads to solutions suggested by the team. I usually have pretty much the same or a comparable solution in mind even before the meeting starts, but the effect is a lot better if they come up with it on their own. This requires everyone to be self reflective, but also to be reflective regarding the whole team. Everyone has to be able to discuss in a constructive manner and more important to listen to critique and to learn something from it.
That’s how education should be in general in my opinion, not only for artists. Exploring with certain goals is a very important qualification that needs to be learned too. As a student I barely got the opportunity to explore and when I got the chance, I didn’t really know how to deal with it. I wouldn’t be surprised if some of your students are in a comparable situation.
so
a teacher, a critic, a master… is one who creates a fellowship to take on a quest through the dark forest, while student is one who discovers the magic (protagonist)
It was often so, but then the ‘better man’ (leading minority) looses authority & control. No more kings or leaders… because in real life it depends on momentary situation, meaning human mind must think, be aware, for almost every moment in life which includes a pinch of chaos with a taste of anarchy while for desert ‘no two egos are equal’.
Found that silence gives more answers to the one seeking help that any word ever could. Game of hints and tips, As long as being present (energy) is not felt as irritating (bad) but welcomed (good).
This is also good team building. I always try to make the students be aware of that they rule the class not me. I just provide grades and direction. But the outcome is in their responsibility. I found that if people are given responsibility instead of orders they are more motivated.
And I think this fully applies to the professional world as well. In nearly all of my professional projects I have a good connection to my contacts. We joke a lot, we see each other as equal without having to flash out degrees, we respect each other but we also know where our position only is.
Fortunately this is something I learned in the US - not sure if it would have been the same in Germany. Culturally we like titles more.
This is sadly the downside of the Bachelor degree system. It is too much like high school. Obviously for foundation courses compact classes are good. But then you also really need the time to experiment, explore, digest, and mature what you have learned.
That however is very often with the Bachelor system not possible. Engineering schools rebelled against it in Germany but sooner or later just gave in. The argument of the professors was that sometimes it is not only important to memorize information or data but also experiment with it. One of the lessons I try to tell my students is that they don’t learn a lot from me. It makes some surprised first when I say that. But fact is that they learn more outside of class when working or collaborating together - or in case they would do that.
The masters degree is honestly now the degree where you learn applying the knowledge which is kinda stupid because it is a degree inflation.
In the USA what complicates things further is the amount of general education classes students have to take even more limiting their ability and time to explore.
Every faculty wants students to go the extra mile but the system increasingly does not allow it them to do. During my thesis year in Germany I had one class - thesis project. My students here have thesis and three others and everybody is upset that the thesis projects never are as deep as they should.
If you then add financial needs, students having in addition to work to pay for college you will see another reason for problems.
I am actually not sure if I can agree with BeerBarons assumption.
When I came to the US I arrived with the idea that titles and degrees do not matter. For sure in animation and that industry I think it is maybe less needed. But industrial design, interior design, engineering, and others it is. Plus in those areas having the wrong degree but the qualification still does prevent you from getting in.
Employees today also increasingly complain about graduates not being good at the basic areas. This is what started the value of a Bachelor degree to drop and a Master being more desired.
That is so true - but you might be surprised how much companies refuse that. They expect academia to do it. But academia is not a trade school. Industries have to further form the graduates into the work person they want. But that costs time and money and the USA is sadly to my experience notoriously known for not investing in education.
Why do you think the US or England lost so many manufacturing jobs while Germany did not. It is not that Germans are smarter or such. It is just that from grade 1 we are pushed for quality and without a trade school degree (apprenticeship) you cannot be hired for anything. Companies also know better educated workers deliver better work. Sadly the value of human capital again here is not often respected or seen.
But that is quite sad - while true. Sometimes I refer my students when they say stuff is too hard to here and pick work of some young high school kids and ask them if they are ok with being defeated by a person who isn’t even in college - self-taught and posses better skills.
That worked quite often to my surprise. That internal embarrassment - if somebody was open to the suggestion - was enough to get them turned around.
But sometimes I ask myself if they are actually not able to really understand how to review peer work. One time I did a silent critic.
Just leave sticky notes. And the content of the notes was often = awesome - great job - bla bla bla
So last semester when a student presented their work, after they finished speaking I told them what I wanted to hear in stead.
What keywords to use, how to structure the story telling, and such.
I felt somewhat miserable doing because it must suck when somebody tells you what you should have said but they were rather happy and expressed thank you to me for opening their eyes. Thats when I noticed that they might actually really not being able to do it because they don’t know what to say.
Anyway I really don’t want to highjack this thread.
I don’t know if that counts as threat hijacking, but you provided some interesting points. Thanks.