I was wonder if I could use a simple mesh to represent a bone instead of creating an armature. I think it would be simpler for the task I need to complete to model a simple chest and have it act as a bone for the actual model.
Don’t know what you actually want to do or why adding a bone is so difficult.
You can parent other objects to this ‘bone’ and you have a range of constraints that can be used http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Doc:2.6/Manual/Constraints
You can use a mesh to deform another mesh but it is extremely slow and processor intensive for anything but the most simple meshes. look up the mesh deform modifier. You might also want to check out the cast modifier. if you are not doing an animation these are ok.
Bones can use mesh objects as custom bone shapes.
With the bone in pose mode, check Properties > Bone > Display panel.
http://www.pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=69091
I’m bumping this thread because I am interested in other responses, and because I think most of the respondents did not actually understand what the OP was asking.
In short, the question is: can the vertices of a mesh object be linked to another mesh object in the same way that a mesh object’s vertices can be controlled by an armature/bones object?
The OP isn’t asking about simply Custom Bone Shapes (which as essentially just for display purposes to make an animator’s job easier). The Cast modifier is irrelevant because the OP is talking about animation. The Mesh Deform modifier is closer to a relevant response, but it misses the mark. Not only is it slow, but its functionality is fundamentally different than what is requested. In mesh deform, the vertices of the deformer-mesh act as a lattice cage to control the shape of the deformed mesh. This is fundamentally different than linking vertices of the deformed-mesh to be controlled by multiple other separate meshes.
I would like to see if there are more opinions, as all previous responses are not at all what the OP was asking for.
What the OP is asking for seems to be a sort-of shortcoming of Blender’s armature system. In 3dsMax, for example, you can make bones just as with Blender. But, they are not limited to existing within an armature object as what seems to be “object-data” (as opposed to objects themselves). Bones in 3dsMax are only novel in that they can be linked as in a bone chain, and therefore accept IK and all other bone-constraints. However, beyond that, the bones are meshes like any other object, and they can be edited, resized, their shapes changed, etc. (For example, an octohedral bone, you can pull on its vertices and make it another shape).
So, in 3dsMax, bones are novel objects. But they are objects all the same, and exist at the same level as all other meshes. What this means is that in 3dsMax, you can take a mesh and skin it to a set of bones, and take advantage of IK and other constraints. BUT, and here is where the benefit is, you can also just take a couple cubes, and then skin a mesh to those cubes in EXACTLY the same way you would skin to some bones. This because the cubes, the mesh, and the bones all exist at the same level.
What the OP means by this being simpler is, for example, if you have a simple cylinder and you want to skin it so that you can move its top cap and bottom cap, you do not need to make an armature and a bone system. You can just make the cylinder, and then a cube at the top, and a cube at the bottom, and then link/skin the cylinder’s top vertices to the top cube, and the bottom vertices to the bottom cube. No armature. No bones. Just some cubes. And the cylinder then responds to the movement of those cubes. Sometimes very simple. Many times, preferable to an armature and bones.
There are a couple benefits to this. First is the sheer simplicity of it, if you only have simple objects requiring simple movements (just parent/link/skin a couple verts to some other mesh object. Done. No armature. No bones.). But a second major benefit is that you can create proxy meshes of your character (or whatever) object and skin to those as the deform controllers. (For example, sometimes you might have a really fat character, and having a little tiny skinny set of bones running down his back bones causes issues with weighting and movement, because they really don’t represent the shape of the object. Here, you could create some proxies of your character mesh, so it is broken into segments that are just as fat as the character itself. Then, set the pivot points of the proxies, and parent/link/skin. Done. The weighting is easier, and the movements of the proxies more accurately reflect the movements of the character than a couple of skinny little bones.) BUT…ultimately perhaps the most important benefit is having a bone-like-object that exists at the same hierarchical level in the scene as all other mesh objects (as opposed to an armature and bones, which each become secondary and tertiary levels of the hierarchy BELOW all mesh objects.
I don’t recall where, but I remember reading that this set up with bones = object data, and therefore secondary in a hierarchy to objects themselves (and I believe that an armature is considered an object) causes problems when trying to animate two characters in sync (I believe dancing was the situation they gave). While my own experiments show that you can parent an entire armature object to an external mesh-object (so, say e.g., a character is skinned to an armature, and that armature is parented to a cube so that the armature can easily rotate around that cube, and therefore the character does also)…I believe that the problem is that the individual bones are considered “object-data” and therefore are not afforded the same luxury. This is to say, while you can parent an entire armature to an external mesh object, you cannot parent individual bones to an external mesh object (permanently or temporarily). While running into that requirement is not necessarily an everyday occurrence…should it happen, the 3dsMax system of bones=object has no problem handling it, while the Blender system of bones=object-data has no clear solution (that I can see)…
Is there any way to do something similar in Blender? Or are we limited by the design of the armature system and the way objects and object-data are separated?
Check out hooks, and vertex parenting.
I think most of the respondents did not actually understand what the OP was asking.
as all previous responses are not at all what the OP was asking for.
Perhaps if we let the original poster speak for themselves, things could be made clearer to us all…
I’m not convinced you understand what the original poster was asking about at this point in time any better than the rest of us…
Is there any way to do something similar in Blender?
yes…
Or are we limited by the design of the armature system and the way objects and object-data are separated?
No…
What the OP is asking for seems to be a sort-of shortcoming of Blender’s armature system
I haven’t had any problems doing interactive character animation in Blender…
all issues have been quickly, easily, and religably solved…
work has gotten done with few hold ups…
I will say this only once here on this thread…
I have used many softwares over the years… Lightwave, Max, Maya, XSI… and now Blender…
here is how I would rank them from my own Humble Experience with using them to specifficaly do character animation…
Lightwave (worst)
Max
Maya
Blender
XSI (easiest to use by far for character animation)
XSI has a similar system in place… where any object could act as bone… and geuss what… nobody ever used that system for character animation… the Armature system in XSI was always prefered over the use of object based Rigging… because the use of the Armature System was just way too easy… so not sure what your getting at when you say…
bones = object data, and therefore secondary in a hierarchy to objects themselves (and I believe that an armature is considered an object) causes problems when trying to animate two characters in sync
because this was the way the Armature system worked in XSI… Object then Data…
XSI worked wonderfully when I was using it…
The Blender guys have built an excellent Base Rigging system for use with character animation…
Norvman,
(Since apparently now we are making personal replies)
I don’t really see the point of you taking what I said about anything as personal. We are ALL on this board because we have CHOSEN to use Blender. And, LIKE YOU, many of us have used other packages.
Does this mean the other packages are superior? Absolutely not. But often times there are very particular quirks or options or settings that legitimately make certain functions easier or better or more pleasant in other packages. (::GASP:
And you’re right, perhaps I should not have spoken for the OP, but, of the three responses prior to mine, one didn’t answer his question, one was clearly addressing something differently, and one was insufficient. I addressed what I perceived to be the most likely thing that the OP was asking. And I would bet that many people coming from certain other packages would have interpreted the question as I did.
Considering I had questions and concerns on this topic and was going to start a new thread, and that the OP’s post appeared to have been both misinterpreted and unanswered, I feel that I did the right thing and bumped it up, rather that cluttering the board with a brand new thread.
So, with all due respect and reverence for your 1,000+ posts…I sincerely appreciate you mentioning the Hook modifier. I had never used it in this capacity and I should have realized that it possesses the properties I was asking about. Well, all except that of being able to parent an individual bone to an external object. But also, with all due respect, I did state that coordinating two armatures was not a problem I myself had run into, but rather was from an interview that I read. But, I do recall the interview was with someone very talented and revered in the Blender community…
But, finally, again, with all due respect…
I will say this only once here on this thread…
Is it REALLY necessary to take that tact? You’re not my father. This is a message board. We all have the same interests. I had a question that was reasonably well articulated, and it was not offensive to ANYBODY, much less you. For the life of me, I CANNOT understand why whenever someone says something that even remotely suggests that Blender has a shortcoming, or that somebody prefers the way another package works, or that they simply don’t understand something or why some particular workflow is the way it is, people (like you, norvman, apparently) almost ALWAYS jump into Super-Saiyan-Warrior-of-Justice-Mecha-Fanboy-Alpha-Mega-Zordon-Rangers-Go! mode coming to the defense of why Blender is perfectly fine the way that it is. And you know what? Blender is good. Very good. Good enough that I use it instead of 3dsMax. And that has NOTHING to do with money. I have NEVER paid for Max, but I AM planning to pay for Blender because Blender deserves it, and so does the community. But Blender is not perfect. And if someone doesn’t like the workflow, or if there is a shortcoming, that does not automatically mean that is THAT PERSON’S fault. Its like Linux fanboys. Linux is great. Linux is open-source, which is even better. And absolutely, the Linux die-hards should get EXACTLY the Linux they want. However, for anyone that isn’t a selfish, conceited fanboy, having an open-source operating system that can REPLACE the major proprietary ones is SO much more important than yelling at a naive new recruit that “Linux IS NOT WINDOWS YOU DUMMY” because they don’t know how to make SUDO order them a pizza and don’t understand why they have to use a package installer and can’t just double-click their program and have wizard do it. (and yes…I do mean that, beyond Ubuntu even, it ought to be graphical, less technical, and more user-friendly…that is, more like Windows/OSx so that regular everyday people have no problem switching…::now locking my doors so the Linux mobs don’t kill my family).
But, I digress:
Lightwave (worst)
Max
Maya
Blender
XSI (easiest to use by far for character animation)
Ok. I get it man. You have the biggest dick in 4 counties. You know more than me. I’m dumb and I don’t know anything and if I was in any way critical of Blender, I now know that you feel my comments speeding through the aether and landing with the sickly solid thud of a fist-breaking-bone square on your ego. I’ll back off. I must have been asleep, or be really naive or something. I thought this place was the good side of the internet where people help each other without making it personal and working together to figure out how to use this program called Blender. Yeah, on /b/ I would expect someone to get personal, show me how big their internet cock is, and prove me wrong. Here? I kinda figured someone would answer my question, and if they had a reason for thinking I was incorrect and was giving Blender’s armature system short shrift, then they might nicely, respectfully, and logically lay out why that was the case in a helpful and educational sort of way (you know…by leaving out the parental “Now I’m only going to say this once!”, and by refraining from unzipping the fly on their jeans and flopping out a list to show me just how many inches their CGI experience is)…
ANYWAY. I’m sorry. I know this is not the place. But come on. I didn’t make any personal sleights against you previously. And if for some reason this comment gets edited (which it shouldn’t really. It just should not be the source of a flame war), BOTH of our comments should be edited and pared down to JUST the parts where advice is given and not the righteous indignation that I would suggest Blender’s armature system isn’t the best in the world.
But for what it’ s worth, Norvman, I looked through your sketchbook and your Vimeo. And your tutorial on tank treads is awesome, Like seriously, very helpful. And your sketchbook isn’t half bad either. As a CG artist and an educator, you’re pretty damn good. I appreciate that. The community is MUCH BETTER for that.
The community IS NOT much better when you respond as if personally insulted to someone surmising that there are some shortcomings to some of its features. In fact, it’s toxic in the same way that (like I said) regular people don’t want to switch to Linux because Linux fanboys are dicks and regular people don’t want to root their Android phones because people in the Android hacking community area also dicks. It’s like the internet in general is toxic these days, where any questioning of Subculture X must be taken personally, any suggestion that Subculture X doesn’t do Y very well must be because Person Z is anti-Subculture X and must be remonstrated against, and anyone that thinks that Subculture X could do Y differently is simply stupid and doesn’t understand the beauty of Subculture-X.
I’m sure someone’s not going to take kindly to me writing this, but at a certain point, I just don’t feel like quietly capitulating to people intimating or explicating how I am wrong or dumb to ask the questions that I do, or for anyone to suggest that Blender could or should be different in somewhat or is inferior or annoying in some other way. I’ts happened to me. I’ve seen it happen to others. The net and different subcultures are rife with this kind of judgement. Its toxic.
But, in closing, two VERY short points.
-
At the end of the day, this is not necessarily directed at you, Norvman, but rather, anyone and everyone that engages in this weird, quirky, ultra personal, toxic subculture protectionism. It’s like micro-nationalism on the Net, and for every person that flourishes in the StackOverflows and StackExchanges and CGArtists and BlenderArtists (etc), there are many people that hide in the shadows or are chased off by the aggressiveness of some people belittling them. ESPECIALLY when it is disguised as help.
-
In Blender, an Armature is considered an object. Bones ARE considered object data and are therefore subject to different rules. So, while there may be workarounds, for example a bone can be assigned a “Copy Location” constraint to an object outside of the armature, a bone cannot be directly parented to that object. THESE were the kinds of issues I was referring to in my post. It turns out you were right an I was wrong. Cool, that’s awesome, Go Blender! But you don’t have to take things personally and be an asshole about it.
Thanks for you time,
M.
personally, I think the other softwares are jealous of the ‘add monkey’ feature.
Quotes like that make me wish there was a “Thanks” system here…
What are the benefits of using another mesh in place of a bone to deform a model ? I can’t see what you’re trying to do ?
Hadrien
(Since apparently now we are making personal replies)
not I…
but, of the three responses prior to mine, one didn’t answer his question, one was clearly addressing something differently, and one was insufficient.
There’s your 3 personal attacks right there…
I addressed what I perceived to be the most likely thing that the OP was asking
without giving any kind of an answer to his/her question… where at least the first 3 resonders were making a good attempt to understand the problem…
So, with all due respect and reverence for your 1,000+ posts…I sincerely appreciate you mentioning the Hook modifier
I did not mention the Hook Modifier… perhaps you need to thank the person who did…
coming to the defense of why Blender
it’s not Blender I’m defending… is the other guys on the board…
LIke said before I Rank XSI as “the” best commercial 3D software I currently use… not blender…
anyone can read that in my post above… so not sure any fanboy comment really applies to me…
The community IS NOT much better when you respond as if personally
The Mote in ones Sir… the Mote in ones eye…
I just don’t feel like quietly capitulating to people intimating or explicating how I am wrong
That’s not really any problem I can solve for you… your going to have to work those issues out on your own…
there are many people that hide in the shadows or are chased off by the aggressiveness of some people belittling them. ESPECIALLY when it is disguised as help.
not sure what makes you think any of us are hiding…
all the people on this thread other than your self and the OP I see almost every day coming in here and responding to people’s questions and giveing lots of help to the community… 99.999% of those people are thankful for the effort… we even get some people who teach us some great stuff now and again and that’s what makes the effort of being on the forms worth it…
but you have to play nice…
speak in a tone that lets people know that your interested in the subject at hand and are not here to start a flamewar…
and stuff gets done… things get figured out… and everyones happy…
But you don’t have to take things personally and be an asshole about it.
Remember what I said about Motes guy… Motes… it’s all about Motes…
Finally … Sorry to have to be the one to say all these things… but I like the people one Blender Artist… much too much to let someone just say anything to them… perhaps that not something of value…
If it’s not… I can quit posting… stop answering peoples questions and go on… I can sit and just lissen… and take all the information in and never help some else out if that’s what everyone else feels like needs to happen… it really won’t be any skin off my back… my stuff will still get done…
The only response to that which doesn’t perpetuate some kind of personal fencing match is this:
but, of the three responses prior to mine, one didn’t answer his question, one was clearly addressing something differently, and one was insufficient.
There’s your 3 personal attacks right there…
I addressed what I perceived to be the most likely thing that the OP was asking
without giving any kind of an answer to his/her question… where at least the first 3 resonders were making a good attempt to understand the problem…
I was never TRYING to answer his question. I had the same concern as the OP, and in having the same concern (again, based on assumption because OP certainly isn’t coming back to rephrase), I realized that the first 3 comments never answered his question, if in fact my interpretation was correct.
However, after rephrasing, Modron DID answer the question appropriately based on my interpretation. (So now, after looking into Hooks and Vertex Parenting, I have a better idea of the answer to my question.)
I certainly don’t want you to stop posting and advising (thus why I included my aside where I actually took the time to look at your work and watch some of your videos). You’re pretty good. And anyone that puts together an almost 10-part tutorial ought to stick around.
I’m just saying, you don’t need to call me out by name for somehow suggesting that Blender’s armature system was inadequate and being patronizing about it…while really not giving any response detailed enough to suggest WHY I was wrong. (I’m always willing to be wrong…I just want to know why).
Anyway, I’m all flamed out. I shouldn’t have been so offended. It was just unnecessary to say it like I had sleighted anybody.
But, Modron say his hook and vertex parenting piece. That pretty much answers the question. At the end of the day, that’s a success.
Sorry.
If I was intentionally attempting to give “personal attack”
(Since apparently now we are making personal replies)
I would have done it much more directly…
Given as I stated before… that you had already “attacked” others I therefore see no reason to down play my first comment…
perhaps it’s a matter that you are not that experienced at communicating on internet forums…
(or your only experience is with the gaming forums… where people are there to have fun… kid around… and insult and jibbe is tone of the day… )
Considering I had questions and concerns on this topic and was going to start a new thread, and that the OP’s post appeared to have been both misinterpreted and unanswered, I feel that I did the right thing and bumped it up, rather that cluttering the board with a brand new thread.
this statement leads me to believe tha this is the case…
because what your engaging in is what is called Thread HiJacking… where you take over someone else’s thread and turn it to your own purposes…
I can’t think of a forum where people would not prefer that you start your own thread with your own questions or talking points rather than taking over someone else’s…
I also can’t think of any forums where people are enamoured with you after you have insulted their sincere responses to the problem at hand…
much less after you have given insult by comparing their ‘Dick’ sizes…
Ok. I get it man. You have the biggest dick in 4 counties.
I will chalk this all up to your inexperience … and go on…
if you have a question… please post your own thread…
I think the rest of us are assuming the Original Poster found his question answered in some other place OR the resonders to his question answered his/her quesiton before you got to the thread… it happens that way all the time…
Some one has a quesiton about blender… they go searching on the net for an answer… Blender Artist is just one place they look… they find that answer and never get back here to make a response… that’s the nature of the beast…
nothing wrong With ‘bumping’ a thread…
but making comment that previous posters answers or comments are somehow inadequate or unresponsive is not going to gain you any friends or answers to your question here or your future posts…
So keep insulting us and claiming we are insulting you… if you like…
Being able to separate between when a person is giving good advise and giving insult is a very valuable and basic skill…
and if your not here on this forum to lissen to people’s advise and suggestions… then… why are you here?
I request we shut this thread down… the OP obviously has gone else where and this thread isn’t accomplishing much else of any good use…