Metal vs OpenCL/OpenGL

Hello there. I am not debating a possible performance boost when using metal is a backend, I simply don’t know, and I suppose it depends on the implementation. But I wonder why you praise the mac pro so much, because it didn’t give me the imression of a good pice/prformance Ratio.

Oh, one more thing! The brand new Metal versions of FCPX, Motion and Compressor does not work in High Sierra. And this is just beginning. All of mentioned above apps (Octane, Redshift, etc. etc.) probably will not work in High Sierra. What does that mean? That means, at least for me, the end of Blender Cycles for Mac. Probably I’ll get Windows junk just for Blender Cycles and I’ll connect this piece of shit via 10Gb connection to a Mac virtual desktop. I hope it will do the job.

I don’t think I’m praising the Mac Pro until my last comment were I’m just excited about it’s release, minus the comment about the possible release of Apple GPUs. The quotes I referenced from the OP’s original article are of CEO’s and Dev’s praising both Metal and the new Macs.

This thread is mostly about Metal, and I’m mostly excited about the rest of the industry making Metal versions of their software and what possibilities that well bring. :slight_smile: I’m tremdusly excited about the Octane X (Metal Version of Octane Render) release and if it is also coming to Blender in the Octane Blender add-on that Otay is currently working on.

My main concern, like I believe the Op has, is that Metal is going to have a big future in 3D, it’s impact is allready being felt on the largest gaming platform out there, and if Blender “waits and sees” how things turn out it maybe a long long time until there’s an industry comparable modern version of Blender, being that the other software companies made the adjustment very early.

I hope Blender eventually gets the resources to have an official Metal port.

Tim

True, that would be cool. But IMO apple should help with that (own devs or funding).

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I agree 100%. Apple should be showing some love to the Blender Foundation/Institute, either in funds or with temporary dev help.

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Dollars to doughnuts Apple would make reliable Cycles Metal in two months.

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@yfile
I think we are going to see the switch. Apple’s influence on certain industries is based on their own involvement. And I’m sure they are ticking off the list of who comes first.
I’m sure music production and video far out paces the 3D world as in its users needing viable software to mix their music tracks and cut video.

I’m mean how many of your normal peeps are trying to learn a musical instrument which then for the first time introduces those same people to world of sound design?
And video, especially now in this era with companies like the aforementioned BMD who have democratized the film industry for us independent film makes.
I’m sure both of those by them self far outweigh the new users coming into the 3D world, that then later become working professionals.

for 2% of the blender “confirmed” users ?
witouth having a cent from the multi billion industry that is apple ?

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by the way. this tweet was taken from a topic that talked about apple taking back one of the only given apple-machine for the blender institute.
the multi billion apple can’t even give one mac from the blender what a shame.

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If Blender was a for profit business there wouldn’t be a Mac version.

It doesn’t surprise me it’s that low given the Mac market share has steadfastly refused to grow and more artists than ever are moving away from the Mac especially in 3D.

It has been a feature of 3D forums in recent times with artists asking for advice switching from the Mac to PC.

To those who think Apple have any real interest in the Pro area just take a look at the lack of development of FCPX and Motion since Ubillos left Apple. The development of their own software on their own platform is abysmal so I don’t know how it is possible to think Apple have the skills or inclination to code a Metal Cycles and support it long term.

It took them until now to support Metal in their own software despite Metal being in the OS since El Cap. Metal Cycles is a pie in the sky.

Wow, Apple actually demanded the return of the Mac Pro they lent to the Blender Foundation, that just doesn’t make sense. Why on earth would they do that ?

I guess the chance of Apple joining the Blender Development fund is less than zero at this point.

I was a Windows user for many years, but my craving to switch to a Mac increased, hearing a lot about macOS and hardware excellence. I come from a Commodore Amiga background, and a PC (both MS-DOS and Windows) was inferior to the Amiga up to some point in the 1990s.

Anyway, in 2014 I finally switched to an iMac, the last model that still had an NVIDIA GeForce GPU. I immersed myself in the Apple eco system and quite liked the comfort and stability of macOS compared to Windows 7.

Gradually it became clear that Apple is predominantly good in producing hardware and a solid OS, but a number of their applications didn’t impress me as much. Especially the iCloud services were a bit shaky. For example, the Reminders app didn’t sync very well between macOS and iOS, iCloud Drive was not comparable to Dropbox or Google Drive, and there were a number of other quirks.

When Apple decided to cease support for OpenGL, OpenCL and NVIDIA, it crippled my Blender experience, and I started to miss the freedom of Windows.

So I returned to a solid PC system with the latest version of Windows 10. And I haven’t regretted that decision ever since. Windows 10 is quite stable, I had the choice to go for an NVIDIA GPU, Blender runs like a dream again, I’ve got access to all Blender addons again (some weren’t available for macOS because the developers couldn’t test it), the software base is much larger again, and I can fully customize my system, without the OS deciding for me what (not) to do.

Concluding, this is not meant as a hackneyed “Windows rules, Apple sucks” comment, just to express my personal preference after trying both options, and to emphasize that Windows 10 is on par with macOS these days.

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Blender could never be profitable mainly because it was just really bad and limited software. The reason that Blender is now a great and successful tool is due to the fact that it become open source and free.

You have such a gigantic experience I’d almost believe you that nobody use Mac but then I suddenly remembered that I use a Mac to make money. What’s more, I remembered most of my co-workers use Macs. So please again: stop this bullshit.

Metal (and Swift) is being developed for many years and only recently it has been recognised as a mature development environment. During this time, Apple has rewritten much of its system and software. Cycles is a piece of cake compared to this. Actually Apple built their own raytracing engine into the latest Metal3 API.

All software will be driven by Metal and/or Vulkan soon because OpenGL is dead. Also most 3D apps will have their own viewport ‘Eevee’ engines soon. I hope Blender jumps on the train before it leaves.

Thanks for your history. I’ll stay on macOS not only because I like it. I use other tools I love that are not available on Windows. Sometimes I use Blender all the time for weeks, but sometimes I don’t use it at all for a month. So I’ll get Windows junk just for Cycles and I have to say it pisses me of a bit because it’s gonna complicate my workflow.

It doesn’t surprise me that you completely missed the point I was making. For 2% of the Blender user base how much disproportionate time and effort time does it take to support these 2%? I think it’s amazing that Blender is committed to supporting such a small number of users to the best of its ability.

In every area of post production that I see everyday Macs are becoming irrelevant. Even in audio post studios where a few years ago you could guarantee a Mac would be they are being replaced.

Apple screwed their Pro users by not replacing the classic Mac Pro, the Trashcan was useless and 6 years after that disaster they’ve only gone and produced a massive white elephant. The once great Apple Computer can’t build a pro desktop for the people who most want to buy it.

In your petulant teenager tone you keep saying Cycles is a piece of cake yet it took them 4 FOUR years for them to adopt Metal in FCPX and Motion. Apple have barely any interest in their own software let alone 3rd party software.

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They are working on Vulkan and even if they were late for the train, it wouldn’t be as dramatic.

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Oh boy…what an endless subject… :wink:

I fully agree, that Apple screwed their Pro users by not producing a real Pro Machine for 9 years. (The Trashcan was a design study with some ‘cool’ ideas - but never a Pro workstation.)
On the other hand, IF they come up with a Pro machine it’s the best thing you can possibly get. I know several 2008 and 2010 MacPro’s still in use today.

Saying that there are no more Macs in post facilities is simple wrong. I work in the high-end commercial and feature market and I still see Macs in post houses. It is true, though that more and more got replaced, because it simply took too long for a ‘real’ new MacPro to be released. This is confusing for Mac Pro users…and that’s why I’m sceptical how serious Apple is this time. Although the new MacPro looks really great…since it’s a carbon copy of the last good ones. But simply releasing a wonder machine is not enough. It has to get support and upgrades for many years.
Yep, Apple has to make up for neglecting ‘us’ for a long time…yet I’m ready to give them a chance, since I know what they are able to deliver, IF they really want to.

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So is misrepresenting what someone has said.

hmmm? :wink:

maybe I misunderstood something…

Don’t really see the point in supporting Metal for Blender when such a small portion of users have Macs. It is not something that should be considered unless Apple decides to fund and support Metal for Blender like the company has done with other softwares (i.e. the Affinity Suite got Metal support thanks to Apple collaborating with Serif for 1.7).

Frankly, I think it would be better for most users if Apple just supported a newer API that works cross-platform like Vulcan. However, Apple’s gonna Apple, I guess.

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this whole thread makes me sad.

i’m a mac user for 15 years, but i fully agree with blender’s official stance on the situation. it just does not make sense to devote resources on the scale required to support metal when it benefits such a small subset of blender users.

its also worth noting that adopting apple backed technologies is a dangerous prospect at the best of times. back in snow leopard days they were in fact pushing developers towards opencl and touting its benefits as an open standard. oh how things change.

finally, we may also have to worry about the bigger risk of apple ditching intel for its own processors.

it appears apple increasingly wants a walled garden that only includes apple centric development or big industry incumbents who can devote the resources to maintaining a metal on the mac, and opencl/cuda elsewhere. :frowning:

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