Occupy Earth!

Not sure why you define communism and anarchy as bad. Both have worked out in small communities very effectively (consider Monasteries for communism; there’s various peaceful tribes scattered through the Amazon and South Africa that subscribe to general anarchy).

And relating to your bacterial metaphor, can you give a concrete example of that done wrong and right in law? I agree with you in general, but I have trouble extrapolating from your metaphor because in brewing, we deal with foreign bacteria with a combination of antibiotics and overwhelming the wort or must with very large quantities of yeast. In other words, it’s not necessarily simply about backing off, it’s about using the right solution to the problem

Well, I defined Communism or Anarchy as idealistic. They are great ideas but in a real world, they don’t work. Both especially fail on the error tolerance side. E.g. the motivation in communism to abuse the rules to your advantage is a serious issue that eventually will lead to it failing.
Yeah, small groups are self-regulating and usually much closer to natural. In that case, anarchy works pretty well. But try to increase the number of people and it will become less and less stable.
No wild animal ever needed an explicit law. Why? Mainly because the organizational structures of wildlife are smaller than those of most humans on this planet. We basically where so vain and started to enforce our own, explicit rules instead of taking what’s given by nature. That allowed us to do things, no other life-form on this planet could do, including the maintenance of huge structures and quite dense populations concentrated in cities. (You could argue that both is true for ants and bees but they’re specialized for that and can pretty much ONLY do that while we still could decide to life in small, self-regulating groups instead)
Now, we have to struggle with our own laws and make them as nice as nature makes them. Of course, nature is quite brutal in enforcing its laws, e.g. failure implies death. But as said, those laws are merely implicit rules that are given for a self-regulating system.

Where the balance should be is indeed a bit difficult and probably, which is the culprit, comes down to personal opinion.
What I’m certain of is that currently, the situation is at over-regulation. Too many rules are currently given that lead to very artificial, distorted behavior which is essentially poison for the system. Exactly defining those laws is nontrivial. In most cases it probably comes down to combinations of laws where single ones seem nice or even necessary but coupled with others of similar kind, they result in a system-trap that can hardly be avoided.

Where I currently see over-regulation from my point of view is US-airports. The control is far bigger than the danger it tries to protect from.
An other example, here in Austria, is the this year new StEOP (StudienEingangs- und OrientierungsPhase ~ initial and orienting phase for studying). It essentially is a law that forces every single studying subject to behave as if it’s totally flooded.
While nice for subjects like Juristic or Medicine, it’s a terrible reverse step for such subjects that don’t need regulation and rather have too few students, e.g. Maths or Physics.
It really wouldn’t have been too hard to give a bit more freedom with less harsh outlines by simply phrasing that law as a right, rather than a duty.
In fact, education in general is over-regulated: Current teaching methods mostly kill creativity and lead to persons who learned lots and lots of stuff they never ever need in their life and feel terribly frustrated about learning all that, while they at the same time lower the morale of the whole class with a few people maybe actually trying to learn this same stuff.
In many cases, the fault isn’t the teachers’ though. Often, they are limited by the system.

The financial market is difficult to guess, as there isn’t much insight into the weird things that happen with all the money when it suddenly vanishes and millions loose their jobs and houses because of that.
Though I’d guess from how it looks, that it’s one of the few systems we currently rely on, that is under-regulated.
Or from a different point of view, it’s regulated by the wrong people.

Heh, while searching for something entirely different, I found this:


Might be interesting for some :slight_smile:

If you throw heaps of antibiotics on minor germs, the very same will happen but inside your body. What do you get? Superresistant illnesses that can barely be dealt with.

What else can you do, but to throw ever more powerful anti-biotics at it?

OL77, well that’s a vicious circle. If you keep doing that, eventually it wont just be superresistent but rather omniresistent.

Also, those germs showed up due to antibiotics abuse. Antibiotics where used for real standard germs, which occured way too often.
Then, the patients’ immune system got resistent. However, those resisting parts where used by germs to become resistant themselves.
And if it so happened that some of those common-illness superresistent germs came in contact with not-so-common ones (which probably is frequently the case in a hospital), what you got was resistant germs where you actually really need the anti-biotics…

The only thing you can do against it is finding new substances that still work but use them more conservatively now.

Or use genetic research to create drugs that rejigger and strengthen the immune system itself able so as to be able to defeat the bacteria without needing the assistance of antibiotics or other drugs.

That may end up creating a greater benefit in the long run because it wouldn’t even involve what we know today as antibiotics.

Massive fun-ness. Enjoy.
(Or, as one of the posters on the video said:
“Welcome to HELL.”)

Of course but this kind of technology honestly is easier to obtain by letting our own immune system do it autonomously.
Interfering with the immune system in a way like that could always lead to side-effects like, for instance, we’re suddenly immune to AIDS but blunt cough kills us because we can’t adapt to that any longer.

Though, all those where metaphors to get a point across. Let’s go back to topic? (angrily glaring at my own mirror image)
So, what’s going on at Occupy?
Edit: yay and just as I say that, a new vid shows up.

Ugh.

<.< that’s called civil war…
A civil war for peace is pretty contradictive >.<

When this year begun there was a thread where people was posting things like “happy new year” and so…
I posted: 2011, the year that all will change.
And now I post: You will see these protests of thousands go to millions. And then all will change. People will get their rights back.

Can you say “FINALLY!!!”?
Wow. Just wow.

This thread is becoming a political dumping ground. It’s been civil, but stay on topic.

We’ve been letting this topic stay open as a bit of a litmus test. Despite the good behavior, I do not want this thread to metastasize (and it has a bit). Topic derailment is an early indicator. There will not be another warning.

If you want to add some notes to your litmus test I generally only talk politics/religion after I’ve had a couple heh, hope this doesn’t throw off the curve :wink:

Very much related:

I have to disagree with the note about more regulation for banks. Not because I don’t think there should be, because I do, but the wording has such an iffy connotation. I would like to see more and better laws against fraudulent behavior by banks. I would not like to see yet another politician-appointed committee responsible for basically making sure banks are always considered kosher.

We have regulations on coal mining and burning, one of the most toxic and harmful industries in the world, if not the most after war. These regulations are written, and monitored, by appointees bought and paid for by the coal industry. Since these are internally regulated, if they’re ever brought to court they can just say, “oh, but we were following regulation”, and get off with a little slap on the wrists.

The same will happen for banks if all we do is appoint committees.

Oh………boy……….:spin:

I Have only one problem with the occupy movement…It blames Wall Street…Wall Street is
just a trading place for stocks which supports the most of the economy-a starting place for new business and a place for support for already established businesses…all stocks are owned by the American people…There is no exclusion…anybody can buy stocks. Remove Wall street and you remove the economy. Wall street is owned by the public, we directly make it’s decisions, whether to sell stock or not, to panic when stock goes down . Wall Street does not make law…that’s governments job…to make helpful laws…to keep the peace…to keep its citizens safe. And as for banks their supposed to be regulated by the Federal Reserve…Haven’t seen much regulation coming from them…:confused:

Wall Street is a good thing with out it a lot of business would not exist and then there would be no jobs…even less than right now:(

If people want to make a real difference in government then they should get into politics themselves…actually go for public offices themselves…Instead of standing by and complaining “they are so corrupt bla bla….”

…End rant :smiley:

@JSM most people are do not have the resources to get elected, that is why they try to change the corrupt system from outside of it instead of trying to join it.

election campaigns are expensive…
It’s not that easy for average joe to afford that.

Btw, as far as I’ve heard, Americans are quite lazy at voting. I’d suggest to go to elections and vote for your favorite - and if there is nobody, explicitly vote blank.

Either way, I think, that commercial is very well done, especially in that it has an equal amount of younger and older protesters in it.

Since the thread seems destined to be censored and banned and locked, there is one thing I’d like to hear more of that didn’t have a chance to be elaborated on. The point was missed in favor of long debates and diatribes. It also wasn’t “political,” at least not in the modern sense of the word as we are so used to using it.
I bring it up again in the hopes that it won’t get sidetracked into a philosophical stampede.
I think it was some of the deepest, most profound writing about modern society I’ve ever come across. It was implied by the OP of the thread. I think that, along with the spirit of the Open Source movement, it could be what mankind needs now more than anything. I think this is the sort of thinking that could save the world. And I think it got run over.
So, one more time, before the grey shroud encloses on this site and eats my thread:
(From Sanne):

Machines are doing work humans used to do, which is great. Why should a human do mindless tasks when a machine can do it better, faster and cheaper? But we should all benefit from that, because we all, this and former generations, built those machines and processes. We should be able to work much less than before, have more quality time to spend with family, pursue our own interests, do voluntary activities or whatever, while still having an acceptable standard of living.

Alas, in reality the benefits don’t go to humanity as a whole, but only to a few who have more wealth than they could possibly spend in one or ten or thousand lifetimes. Lots of people have a hard time to generate income, and those who still have are often times slaving away their life, doing much more work in much less time with much less coworkers than ever before. Meanwhile those wealthy few are still getting wealthier.

This is just absurd. With our productivity and intelligence we should be able to build a paradise on earth or at least come pretty close. We humans really lost track and made a very wrong turn somewhere/somewhen.

Competition got us into the mess we are in now. It is very well for things like sports or challenges for the mind like chess, but not for the necessities of life. I strongly believe that we have to quit being competetive when it comes to things like food, clothing, houses and the like. It leads to producing and then throwing away excess food, while people starve somewhere else, and exploiting the planet for its ressources without thinking of the long term consequences.

What we desperately need IMO is cooperation, not competition. We need a system where it is ok and encouraged to build on the success of others and work together, and not closing away accomplishments so my company has an advantage over yours. We simply cannot afford those things any longer.

     Ok, thinking out loud here. As an example of what I mean we can take the  open source/free software universe, like Blender itself. Lots of people  gather around Blender, most of us motivated by and pursuing our own  individual interests. But in this community, where sharing is a virtue,  lots of us are also drawn towards sharing with others, be it code,  tinkering, interesting tests, help or tutorials. People might even be  seen as competing in sharing (i.e. who makes the best tutorial, python  script, code), which usually is no bad thing at all. While there are  certainly also less beneficial things present like flamewars, big egos,  people who just take without giving in return, I feel that the majority  of us has Blender's and the community's best interest at heart and wants  to contribute.

So here we have cooperation that doesn’t prevent individual interests, and competition that isn’t destructive but challenging and stimulating. The few bad apples are just tolerated and brought along, because the beneficial people have a critical mass that sustains the whole.

Maybe something along those lines can be a model for society at large.

Machines are doing work humans used to do, which is great. Why should a human do mindless tasks when a machine can do it better, faster and cheaper? But we should all benefit from that, because we all, this and former generations, built those machines and processes. We should be able to work much less than before, have more quality time to spend with family, pursue our own interests, do voluntary activities or whatever, while still having an acceptable standard of living.

I don’t know which part of that paragraph to correct first. :wink:

Alas, in reality the benefits don’t go to humanity as a whole, but only to a few who have more wealth than they could possibly spend in one or ten or thousand lifetimes. Lots of people have a hard time to generate income, and those who still have are often times slaving away their life, doing much more work in much less time with much less coworkers than ever before. Meanwhile those wealthy few are still getting wealthier.
That’s why the Occupy Wall Street protesters are there. But, really, I don’t see much on the solution front.

Competition got us into the mess we are in now. It is very well for things like sports or challenges for the mind like chess, but not for the necessities of life. I strongly believe that we have to quit being competetive when it comes to things like food, clothing, houses and the like. It leads to producing and then throwing away excess food, while people starve somewhere else, and exploiting the planet for its ressources without thinking of the long term consequences.

Please elaborate…