Open-sourced alternative to zBrush - updates [it ain't happening] + personal advice

From what I heard they just hired the guy who made it to work for them. He simply sold the rights to sculptris to pixologic when he started working for them.

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Ahh see, there you go. Pixologic’s sainthood restored. :smile:

This is what’s already happening in Blender since a long time. Blender uses an optimized structure called PBVH (painting bounding volume hierarchy) for Sculpt Mode. From checking the Git history since 2.51.

The issue is there was no one to develop sculpt mode on this level further. AFAIK Pablo recently worked on Voxel an OpenVDB based PBVH storage, although I don’t know any details. Point is, limitations like non-suiting mesh storage don’t really exist.
Given that sculpting is an own mode in Blender, we can do all kinds of optimizations in there that don’t affect other modes.

What is, or at least has been missing, is an active developer(-team) that pushes sculpting in Blender further. IMO that is the best bet for an open source ZBrush alternative in the near future.

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Okay good. So that means that Blender should be free to adjust mesh storage to handle much greater poly counts, yes? And that sculpting across multiple intersecting meshes (like drawing with zspheres) should be doable?

I’m sorry if I come across like a troll, I just feel really strongly on the matter. And yeah, I ain’t great at digital sculpting (it just takes practice and I haven’t been at for long enough). Having said that I’ve seen completed works of some extremely good sculptors, so I do have a fairly good sense of what Blender is and isn’t capable of. I want to see an open-sourced program that is capable of this or this someday.

I don´t exactly know how many people are coding the next Zbrush. I know there is an amazing coding/artist who created Sculptris and also who implemented the first remesher in CG history inside 3DCoat. Pixologic made him a contract. A plus on their side.
On Blender there have been only a few programmers, and the one pushing ahead this completely is the expertisse of Pablo Dobarro. 1 vs 100 coders. I´d say we’re getting to a great ground that in less than 8 months, sculpting tools are far greater than any of the OGL web browsing sculpting tools. That you have to acknowledge.
Through my entire CG career I´ve trained people from different backgrounds in 3D, and it generally happens that there is this “1 question I cannot get cleared out” what causes the kind of behaviour you´ve posted. So feel free to ask, man. We want to give clear answers. But just ask :slight_smile:

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I gave a live workshop for Zbrushers last month. They asked me the same questions. I showed in the workshop how to do that (with less than optimal tools for sculpt, different and better as we have them now on October!), and they were happy to have found “the buttons to click”. So I guess a video would set you up rather quickly just like them.
Oh gosh… It hurts not having the time to upload more video training to my channel… I´ll need to make some time specifically to board your question.
But in addition: yes, we have better amazing sculpting tools now.

Regarding sculpting performance in Blender, what Pablo and Brecht have done during 2.81 so far have improved the overall performance of sculpting quite a bit. It is not as strong as ZBrush, granted, but you are still able to sculpt with millions of polys even without MultiRes. Now I can push at least to 7-8 million with Voxel Remesher before moving on to retopology and MultiRes sculpting. The modifier can go up to around 20-30 million on my PC before Blender slows down severely. This is in stark contrast with 2.80 where I really struggled after just a million or so while freesculpting, since we didn’t have a good sculpting workflow outside of Dyntopo, which is still slow performance wise despite the brush engine improvements.

Performance wise, Sculpt Mode is actually not that terrible in how it handles geometry (again, not on par with ZBrush, but it is still fairly decent). One big problem however is that there have been a lot of bottlenecks in various areas of Blender that have slowed down performance besides just geometry data. For instance, the brush engine has been incredibly slow because of various issues plaguing it for a long time. However, the last couple of months we have seen some incredible strides taken to fix that. Special credit should be given to Brecht, who massively boosted brush performance in general, while Pablo dealt with most of the inefficiencies with how the brushes behaved and functioned.

It is not only ZBrush’s handling of geometry that makes it fast. The tools available have always been a massive asset in optimising sculpting performance in basically all levels of production. Dynamesh and ZRemesher especially have been massive assets in assisting sculpting performance, something that Blender has not had built in until quite recently. Blender is still missing a bunch of tools, but the ones we have got like Voxel and QuadriFlow have closed the gap quite a bit. Not to mention the new add-on QuadRemesher, which is made by the same guy who made ZRemesher.

If Blender keeps getting more tools to optimise sculpting like cutting, merging, and so on, sculptors will be able to do a lot more than what’s currently possible, regardless of if Sculpt Mode performance is written from scratch or not. It’s likely that Blender sculpting still needs to do a code rewrite, but until then we can do quite a lot just fixing and adding the missing tools from ZBrush.

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I learned pretty early in the blender world, you don´t come with “another software mindset”. We don´t necessarily have to have the same (or equally similar) tools as Zbrush.
I’ve sculpted in 3Dcoat as well, and Blender is evolving into it’s own set of tools.
Blender devs by principle, will never copy/paste other software tools.
So that argument of “it´s missing this or that”, is not a valid indicator.
Blender will evolve it’s own tools or at least work in a “universal” principle for sculpting (pinch, layers, etc… toolset)…

Things like what you posted can be made in Blender. All of the tiny little details that are taking up most of the polys can and probably should be done with textures. Draw the little nooks and cracks on after it’s been sculpted, retopo, and UVed. To do anything with it the sculpt has to have all that done with it anyway. It has to be retopoed because no software will deform 3 billion polys with bones or joints. Importing and exporting 3 billion polys is going to be a huge pain with a giant file size. Doing anything with 3 billion polys is going to be a huge pain. Even in ZBrush Zremesher can’t handle more than 8 million vertices. Keeping poly count down is a great thing to practice. When you get good at sculpting you realize how few polys you actually need to make a lot of things. I hear Blender 2.81 can do about 30 million. That should be more then enough for anything if it’s being made right. Combined that with Exoside Quad Remesher and you have a great sculpting program with Blender. If you do go Zbrush good luck. Those menus can be way more confusing then Blender. Zbrush can be more responsive. Zbrush not bad, but Blender is also very good.

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As days pass and with recent sculpting addition on 2.82 i almost sculpt my asset exclusively in blender and the more i use it the more i love it.

I was using 3d coat for my sculpting need before but now i barely open it except for manual retopo or painting.

Staying in one software for modeling sculpting and texturing is a real time saver and i will never go back using 10 software’s for a single asset these days are over in my book.

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I find it hard to follow why either of you are discussing those examples as why or why not to use Zbrush.

If you are using Zbrush chances are you are aiming for a high level of proficiency and detail. That does not mean you are there yet. Or will ever get there. But if you grasp the reason to use Zbrush over other apps, that is usually the aim. To use the program that has the best overall performance and ease of use - once you learn it - menus interface, UX and all. (And people using Blender should understand that, if nothing else.) With the goal of achieving the highest detail - in sculpting - possible.

Zbrush is the only application that gives this. It is not even a point of argument.

Sculpting is sculpting. Painting is Painting.

And while you can and often do add final details at the painting stage it is a very confining and limiting method of design overall.

There is a place to practice every technique. And with sculpting, one of the most powerful workflows is to work completely free of mesh limitations and other technology. And in this case, sculpting is a design program. And designing with fluidity is the key. And a great sculptor/designer is best left alone to play in the sculpting sand box.

While it may not be the case that every artist that ever uses Zbrush is a world class designer of high level detail characters or other assets, it is very true to say that the best (realism) sculptor/designers all use Zbrush.

Now I did not say all great ones. Or all talented ones. I said the best ones. And those who mainly focus on realism or hyper-realism.

You don’t have to look very far or hard to find those examples on the internet. It is some of the most astounding 3D work you will ever see.

And the best (realism) designers are using in the hundreds of millions of polygons.

Now if you will never be the best of the best, you might want to settle for another app. However as one of the not best of the best I can say after using Zbrush I have not enjoyed using anything else. And though I have tried.

Lucky for me, I don’t have to rely on my limited Zbrush skills. I have been working with an artist for the last 5 years who is well on the road to becoming one of the best of the best. I have watched him grow and also guided him along at times. And some of the stuff he does is very well top notch. But he keeps learning and growing. And I have watched him day in and day out using Zbrush. It has been a long journey for him. And he works hard.

Zbrush is the only app that allows an artist such as him to reach these higher levels. Although there are finite limits in Zbrush, it has to be the case that it can seem boundless even for the greatest ones.

Zbrush is the only app that gives this. Absolutely hands down. And there is no argument for that otherwise.

Different strokes for different folks. If you like Zbrush and can make good stuff in it go for it.

Art is subjective, so I’m not sure how you can say the best of the best use Zbrush and only Zbrush. Those same artists are great because they are great artists. I bet someone very skilled in both Zbrush and Blender would be able to make almost the same thing looking almost the same in Blender and Zbrush, but they would make it faster using Blender. I’m talking about a model sculpted, remeshed, UVed, painted, and posed. Start to finish would be faster in Blender than Zbrush.

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I respect your opinion and that your heart is in the right place. I don’t really want to turn this into an argument. I stated my opinion pretty clear and I respect that you don’t agree, and have stated your opinion clearly as well.

Good enough for me. :slight_smile:

We could do a competition to find out which is faster and the quality for reals. Then it would not be opinion it would be fact.

Blender is not ready for that kind of competition. Setting aside the reality that it is not really something you could make a “real” competition out of. But I understand the point you are trying to make.

I do think your vision for Blender could come true, in time.

With more companies like this coming on board and perhaps a company with an interest directly in sculpting. Maybe a large jewelry design company?

Regarding the notion of a competition like this in general, you would not have to force it. The artistic community would make that decision on their own. Pretty much how it works.

You build better tools and the artists come. In that order.

I agree with Kevin Costner here. :slight_smile:

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Can you tell us your PC specs?

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I Sympathize but let me tilt the level to get the air-bubble centered here.

It’s world class software with world class developers made to do one thing.
Any general 3D application will never compare.
It’s the undisputed king and it’s simply amazing software.

However…

Folks would like a fast Ferrari but they ain’t driving over 50mph any day of the week and only 30mph on Sunday.
Following???

Maya has some top notch animation features but Blender will get the Job done and unlike Maya, it wont cost the price of rent downtown next to the local meth lab that doesn’t show on google maps.
Catching my drift?

Most people wont hit enough limitations for it to really matter. They can make do with what they got and still put the leftovers in the fridge.

I’ve been with Blender since 2.48. I can be patient. Nothing in this world is truly free.
It has always managed to get the job done and when I think I need to make an exit BOOM! Eevee comes out and grabs me by my pelotas.

The best thing you could do for your now forgotten sculpting crusade into Zbrush territory is find your place in the world. You want to make it happen? Develop and submit one or two key features into Blender. Be like Bilbo!

“'You are a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you; but you are only quite a little fellow in a wide world after all!"
Gandalf - The Hobbit

You make some good points, albeit a little late to the party.

However, I must disagree on one very important aspect… I’ll take a '65 Shelby GT350 over the Ferrari, thank you very much. :smile:

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