Poly modeling frustration?

General Forums Blender and CG Discussions
1

I’ve followed Blender off and on, always hated the UI, but with 2.5 thought I’d give it a look. While I don’t personally think the UI has improved much, what really bothers me when trying out Blender (coming from Maya or Max), is that many basic poly modeling tools seem to be missing.

Rather than think Blender sucks, I assume I’m not seeing them OR they’re simply not in the alpha. If someone can enlighten me, I’d appreciate it. Here’s my list of what I consider to be the bare-bone basics of poly modeling and whether I’ve found them in Blender:

  • Extrude (check, good implementation)
  • Create Edge loop/ring (check, good implementation)
  • Slide edges (check, good implementation)
  • Split poly tool (this is probably in the top 3 of essential tools, can’t find it)
  • Beveling (check, personal opinion, implementation seems poor)
  • Fill hole (check, good implementation)
  • Array tool (check, good implementation)
  • Make hole/Projection
  • Bridge polygons
  • Create polygon
  • Append poly
  • Poke face
  • Wedge face
  • Flip/reverse edge
  • Lattice deformation/Deformation by proxy

A few other tools would be nice but not crucial, but those, to me, are the real basics.

My other issue is that the way Blender seems to implement everything in terms of selection is so clunky. This is a huge problem, it makes for REALLY inefficient work flows:

  • In Maya, I would double click an edge and get the whole loop/ring. If I wanted only part, I would select the first edge, then double click the second edge and it will select everything in between. Blender makes me hot key to select a whole ring/loop. One hand vs two.
  • Maya gives context sensitive right click menus, so if I right-click on a polygon object, I get poly options/tools, if I right-clicked a curve, I’d get curve tools. This is an extremely efficient/convenient method to have most of the tools that are relevant to your particular task constantly at your fingertips without resorting to complex key combinations, buttons or pull down menus.
  • The most basic form of box drag select, I have to use awkward hotkey combination in Blender, in Maya… I just drag select. Again, one hand or two hands + multiple keys.
  • Why would you reverse the most fundamental clicking/selection rule out there, left click selects… why?
  • Why is there an “edit” mode, I can always edit my polygon in Maya without entering a “mode”, why would I want to be in a mode where I can’t edit my polygons?

I can go on and on, but it seems like whoever creates Blenders interface seems to think the only way to do anything is to do the opposite of normal convention and use increasingly complex hot key combinations. This may not seem like a big deal to some of you, but this is HUGE for work flow. Consider that on basic operations like selecting and clicking, those will be repeated thousands of times per session. Yes, I’m aware you can reconfigure hotkeys, my frustration isn’t that, what I’m referring to is more fundamental.

In the past I just uninstall Blender in disgust and go back to Maya/Max land, but I’m trying to be more fair to Blender. Am I just missing something? Note, I also tried to watch a few blender poly modeling tutorials, all I ever see is just extrude, insert edge loops and move vertices :frowning:

2

Being a fairly new Blender convert myself (been doin’ 3D for games & broadcast video since '95 with Max2, 3, 6, and I currently own 2010), I honestly considered spending the time answering all of your questions. But as I read through your entire post, I realized that someone who claims to be “trying to be more fair to Blender” yet hasn’t even discovered the User Preferences panel and the ability to change R-click select to L-click select, (not to mention the choice of “legalstud” as a username for their 1 flamebait post), is being somewhat disingenuous.

You sound like just the type of person who needs to continue plodding along on AutoDesk’s “upgrade or die” treadmill.

c’est la vie

3

Hi,

I’m still using 2.49 mostly, so bear that in mind when you read my comments.

Could you explain this one? I’m not a Maya user so I’m not really sure what this is supposed to do. If I had to make a hole, I’d just delete some faces, so I’m guessing this tool does something more complicated.

Select as required, press F>Skin Faces/Edge Loops.

Select vertices, press F.

CTRL-left click (at a guess).

I don’t know what these are supposed to do. Please describe them.

CTRL-E>Rotate Edge CW/CCW.

Add lattice object and use the lattice modifier / Add proxy mesh, use MeshDeform modifier.

I disagree. Blender is designed to be used with one hand on the mouse, the other on the keyboard. This is to avoid forcing the user to repeatedly click the mouse, which can lead to carpal tunnel syndrome and shorten the user’s productive working life. Instead, an attempt has been made to share the work between the right and left hand. That is the same reason that double-clicking (and triple-clicking) has been avoided.

This is different from most other applications, so it will seem alien. I believe 2.5 allows you to configure the controls yourself (I think I saw a thread where people were creating keymaps to replicate the Max/Maya/etc. experience) so if you don’t like it, you should be able to change it.

What is your other hand doing during this time? Why is it more efficient to use only one hand?

In 2.49, the buttons are context sensitive. I believe 2.5 includes a lot of context sensitive stuff (e.g. the toolbar).

The “awkward hotkey combination in Blender” is B. Is that really too difficult? And if you press B again, you get a nice resizable circular selection tool.

The devs decided that Blender should remain consistent other applications. Left-clicking places your cursor in most applications, so left-clicking in Blender places your 3D cursor. If you really don’t like it, just change it (it is a preference, after all).

You might want to animate your model, or have a lot of objects on screen at the same time and want to edit only one of them, or only view complex objects as bounding boxes to improve interaction speed, etc.

That sounds like a good argument for sharing the work between both hands, instead of forcing poor users to click the left mouse button thousands of times, often in rapid succession.

I’ve just taken a quick look and I think you can change a lot more than hotkeys in 2.5. It looks like you can reconfigure tweak options, mouse options, etc. My version of 2.5 has a Maya preset already configured. Have you tried to make things easier for yourself?

If I’d paid for Max and Maya I don’t think I’d bother using anything else, but the nice thing about Blender is that it’s a very good example of open source software that works well.

I’m sure there are things about Max and Maya that you don’t like or that you think could be improved and, if you’re lucky and if you’re a big enough customer, they will implement your suggestions for you.

With Blender, you don’t have to pay a penny to try the software, or to use it for profit. You get to look through the source code and make changes yourself. You get to report bugs and watch them get actioned, and make suggestions about its future that will be implemented if enough other people agree with your opinion.

I think it is very impressive that an application that is available to everyone for free can compete with industry-standard software. I think that Blender can be used instead of Max/Maya for many things. From my own experience, I spent several years trying Blender on and off but couldn’t really understand the UI. At some point, something clicked, and now I find it (mostly) second nature. Once you develop the muscle memory for the hotkeys (and there really aren’t that many…) it becomes quite simple and quick to do things.

However, whether you like the interface or not is highly subjective. If you really can’t get used to it, just be glad you made the effort and move on. You can always come back to it and try the next version.

4

Interesting that you read through the “entire” post, yet missed where I clearly say “Yes, I’m aware you can reconfigure hotkeys”. Read fail followed by personal insult, you are a credit to humanity. As I said, my complaint isn’t an inability to remap keys as I see fit. It’s that Blender seems to actually TRY to take established norms, and change them without reason or benefit (left click/right click). It’s a design philosophy that I find completely bizarre.

As to the other guy who provided a long, more thoughtful response, I appreciate it. I’ve always understood that “you get what you pay for”, free, and that Blender’s strength is that you can really get in there and change it. I don’t disagree with any of this, I’m just puzzled by the most bizarre design decisions I’ve ever seen. Frankly, the idea that Blender forces you to hit cntrl-alt-tab, and that’s SAVING me from carpal is somewhat eye rolling, BUT you obviously wrote a sincere and thoughtful response and for that I thank you. Blender would just cause carpal in both hands… and be slower to boot. That and the premise that it’s the double click in Maya that would cause carpal (as opposed to general computer usage) is just flat out wrong. Blender’s going to save me 1% of my total mouse clicks and prevent carpal tunnel? No. Imagine if tomorrow, all major OS’s removed the double click and implemented ALT-C + Click. I guess I can be thankful the Blender folks don’t make OS’s.

But since you were very cool and took the time to make a real reply:

  • “What is your other hand doing during this time? Why is it more efficient to use only one hand?” - I’m somewhat shocked I even have to answer this. It’s like asking why 1 is less than 2. It is flat out faster to double click than to hit ALT-WHATEVER Click. Period. Repeated thousands of time per session, the difference is minutes. Repeated for work long term, the different in this one action alone is HUGE. Now multiply that by the other 20 things Blender does awkwardly that are used hundreds/thousands of times per session. Blender’s work flow is just flat out slow, even if I memorized every awkward key combination it wanted.

  • “The devs decided that Blender should remain consistent other applications. Left-clicking places your cursor in most applications” Except that no other program does this. That and the premise is wrong, left click SELECTS in virtually every application. Do Blender users not find it odd that you left click a BUTTON to select it, but an object requires right click? It’s not only not consistent with other 3d programs or GENERAL computing programs, it’s not even internally consistent.

  • You misunderstood create polygon (my fault), it lets you literally DRAW a polygon, point by point, not fill it in if I understand what you referenced correctly (F).

  • “Could you explain this one? I’m not a Maya user so I’m not really sure what this is supposed to do. If I had to make a hole, I’d just delete some faces, so I’m guessing this tool does something more complicated.” It allows you to project one piece of geometry into another. For example, if I had a Star shaped polygon, I could project it onto a simple plane, and it would cut out a star shaped hole in the plane.

  • “I don’t know what these are supposed to do. Please describe them.” Wedge face allows you to take a face and essentially arc-rotate it around an edge, in an almost lathe like fashion. Poke simply create a vertex in the center of a face, makes for fast detailing in many instances.

As for the other things like Bridge, thank you, now I know. It’s just so disheartening to see, Blender is really powerful and really cool, but the workflow issues are so inherent, there’s a reason studios don’t use it. Trust me, pretty much every major studio would LOVE to use “free” as opposed to the “autodesk upgrade mill” as the other poster so elequontly described it. I’ve used the “maya presets” in 2.5, it only remaps a few things and doesn’t really alter the underlying work flow issues. Ah well, thanks for the reply.

5

Better modeling tools will probably come with the BMesh integration whenever that is.

The bevel modifier is not very useful but the old implementation (that’s in 2.49) will be back some day where it’s just an ordinary tool you can use on whatever edges you want.

The next 2.5 release will come with some hotkey presets for a Maya setup for example.

As for the double clicks, I wouldn’t want them myself, ALT+RMB to select an edge loop doesn’t sound like a problem at all to me. The hotkey presets will probably change this anyway.

6

This has turned into a topic about design ergonomics so I’m moving it out of the Support Forums.

%<

7

I haven’t given 2.5 a serious look, but I have to agree that Blender’s idea of a good interface has always been one hand on keyboard and the other on the mouse. No attempt at using one hand entirely, which to me is the most appropriate way to start when designing a UI. Everything should be accessible by using one hand, and using the keyboard should be optional. The mouse in Blender have very limited power. It’s not being used to desselect selected objects, the right-click is not used for context-sensitive popups, you have to hit a key for border selection, etc. I hope these things will be sorted out in the end.

8

I actually find blender more ergonomic than maya, but everyone is different… I find view nav in blender (with emulate 3 button mouse) suits using a tablet more than alt lmb, mmb, rmb…probably why many blender/lightwave/modo users work with a tablet primarily where most maya users I know (which is quite a lot) prefer a mouse…

the carpal thing is a red herring…and assumes that everyone works the same…I use a tablet rather than a mouse , so some key choices are sub optimal… but I’m generally well catered for! double clicking with a tablet is actually more comfortable and less strain than mmb or rmb ironically enough!

you won’t find a “point by point” create poly tool in blender because people usually extrude… just like you cannot create a “free point” in maya, it must be part of a polygon… neither is better, just different… (ironically I’ve been caught out by maya importing “free edges” and “free vertices” (that it cannot possibly create) and so they are impossible to remove! (and lead to instabillity and crashes)

yes, a point to point cut tool would be nice… there’s a script somewhere for 2.4x, butit’s not quite as good as it sounds because of the lack of ngon support in blender… (see bmesh branch)

but in blender using “rip” “split” and “subdivide” as well as a thorough knowledge of how the “knife” tool works will mean that you might not miss ngons or point to point cut… I do hope for a point toi point cut myself, especially if it follows the excellent example set by silo (which can create within faces as well as on edges) but can happily model without it and without much impact on my efficiency… but i know others who just cannot adapt their workflow and find it too alien…

bridge and bevel are both notrable for their absence from 2.5 and soreley missed, but as mentioned the modelling tools aren’t getting to much attention asthe bmesh branch is justover the horizon…

the leftclick/right click select issue is from a time before their were conventions… actually, I quite like it as you’ll never accidentally select and move something… but in 2,5 I;'ve stuck with rmb select but have box select set to LMB and “click on empty space” set to deselect so i get the best of both worlds…

but I guess to sum up, we are all products of our environment, and those raised on lightwave have slightly differnt preferences to those raised on max or maya…or blender

I hasten to add that max and maya are significantly different in approach from each other (and from blender): don’t believe? just look at how you navigate the view! and yet the users of either software will often come to the blender forum and and argue that there is some kind of standard to be adhered to!

one mans meat is another mans poison! so be cautious when you find certain choices baffling it might be that they just aren’t your style!

products like Silo or Modo (as you seem most interested in modelling) seem to have it right in that they put customisation of input front and center so those basics of interaction (selection, viewnavigation, manipulators) can be made familiar easily…

Blender 2.5 is much more customisable than either, with a breadth and depth of options that sadly probably aren’t as easy to use as they should be… but the new “presets” system does allow for most migrating form other software to be satisfied…

9

Hi,

Perhaps I should point out that my mention of carpal tunnel syndrome was somewhat tongue in cheek and partly based on the fact that I appreciate the use of both hands as my right hand has started to seize up and left-clicking is becoming painful. I don’t actually believe that using Blender is going to save everyone from chronic pain - it was more of a possible rationale for the decision. As far as I know, the idea was to split activity between the right and left hand so that one hand could be performing an activity while the other was moving into place to perform the next - an idea to improve efficiency rather than health.

If you’re talking about edge loop select, it’s ALT-left click. That’s two actions, each performed simultaneously by a different hand, rather than two actions, both performed sequentially by the same hand. In other words, you should be able to edge loop select twice as quickly in Blender. For another example, how do you delete in Maya? Do you have to move your hand to the Delete key? Or right-click and select Delete? In Blender you press X and left-click without moving the mouse or reaching across the keyboard.

I’m not saying this is a better design philosophy - it’s just different, and I wanted to try to show you that arguments exist that support this philosophy.

How do you place your cursor in Microsoft Word? Or Notepad? Or any other application that actually makes use of a cursor?

Ah I see. Yes, I don’t think there is a direct analog in Blender. You’d need to draw your poly (CTRL-left click) and fill it with F.

Without support for NGons, this kind of operation has always been quite tricky in Blender. The best advice is to build around your holes to start with, although that usually doesn’t help when you really need it. The best thing to do at the moment is to use retopo or shrinkwrap to project your star-shaped poly onto the plane, then join them and manually rebuild the hole. You could try using booleans, but you’d end up with a messy mesh.

Wedge sounds like it does for faces what spin does for objects. Poke also sounds interesting but I don’t think we have an equivalent (we would extrude the face, and merge at centre). These sound like things that could be added as scripts (someone may already have written one) but I don’t think either is built into Blender.

That’s one of the reasons why I like that the Blender institute put their money where their mouths are and actually use Blender to produce products, whether they be short films, technical demos or games. This kind of activity can only help improve Blender’s toolset and demonstrate what it is possible.

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I’m a die hard Blender user, but my conclussions from this threat and personal experience:

Blender needs a polygon tool, because its faster then drawing a bunch of points and building a face out of it after.
Blender needs wedge, because it’s faster then extruding and merging.

How do you place your cursor in Microsoft Word? Or Notepad? Or any other application that actually makes use of a cursor?

How do you select text in Word or Notepad?
Blender should have Left click select by default. It’s way more often to select objects then to move your corsor. Besides, having this kind of cursor, which you can’t move in 3D space with gizmos is kind of weird, cause you can’t place it precicely. Though I’m already used to right clicking, I don’t think new users should be hitting this wall…
I think the 3D cursor is not usefull. What i’d like there to be instead:

  1. Temporary pivot points like in XSI.
  2. Moving object centers with gizmos instead of the cursor, because it’s just damn uncomfortable.

Personally, i find using one hand on the keyboard and one on the mouse way faster then moving the mouse big distances on the screen and selecting tools. Modeling becomes really fast that way. Even though box selecting by simply click and drag makes sence, I find click-drag as move vertexes extremely comfortable and fast. So i prefer having it to move.

I love having different modes for different things you want to do. (Edit mode, pose mode, object mode, sculpt mode, etc). Everything you don’t need just gets out of the way.

And ofcource “turntable” should be the default navigation thing.

Now we have to wait for BMesh to be finished and merged into trunk. Only then we shall get more advanced modeling tools.

11

Yes and no. I think the 3D cursor is useful (though less essential than it was before I discovered the virtues of ‘Active vertex’ as a pivot). But I cannot imagine any situation in which I would want to place it with a freehand mouse click; on the rare occasions it’s not positioned by snapping to an object or vertex, then it’s done by entering numerical coordinates.

Best wishes,
Matthew

12

I’d suggest having it this way by default:
Hotkey + left click - Place cursor (since it’s used more rarely)
Left click - select/bounding box
Right click drag - Select/Move
Right click click - Spacebar menu.

Hows that idea?

Though i still think it’s a must to make object centers movable with gizmos.
Like, adding a “Don’t move meshes” button on the 3D window header, and as you use tranformation tools, the meshes don’t move, only the centers do.

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@legalstud

I think Blender has robust modeling tools. Check out my blog. In this page you can find frequently used Blender tools. I hope they’ll be helpful. I also believe that Bmesh integration will provide more useful tools. :yes:

Click here

14

It’s a design philosophy that I find completely bizarre.

I’m guessing you’re younger or around 20. Blender started out on the SGI where the standard was right click to install. So in fact it was following industry standards at that time since every hollywood studio used SGI.

15

and “click on empty space” set to deselect
Could you explain how …sounds good…looked in the configs. but wasn’t sure.
thanks

16

lol this topik… I have no words…

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Max is better for modeling? :wink:

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People need to learn to agree to disagree when it comes to this topic. If people are all like this Endi guy there would be no development going on right now. There’s nothing wrong in adding options. Every user is different.

BTW, is the macro feature added now? For example, I would like to have a single click or a hotkey for: Add modifier+Subsurf+View level 2+select all+recalc normal

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No…

…the RENDI button is still missing! Not good enough!

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I’m modeling in XSI atm which uses the S key for navigation and the Alt key for quite a lot of other functions. This isn’t exactly conventional but you soon adjust with a bit of effort, blender’s no different in that reguards.
The way i look at it is all i need is a polygon and an edge that i can extrude from and i can create anything i want.
I honestly think adding a whole bunch of tools defeats the object of good clean modeling workflows.
The tools i use most often in any package are extrude, loop slice, target weld and snapping if i’m doing hard surface stuff.
This is just the way i work, i know everyone is different, but with these simple tools i can adjust to any package without a problem. It’s mainly viewport navigation that i have to adapt to, as that holds most muscle memory for me