What suggestions do you have for my back topology? I’m kind of a rut, so I’d like your opinion on what changes to make.
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Your topology is too messy, simplify it like this potential example http://blenderartists.org/forum/showpost.php?p=1295401&postcount=7
Richard
Too messy? ZombieJohn had no problems with the supposed ‘messiness’, his critiques were focused on my use of edge-loops, which I suspect is the issue here as well.
Your topology can be as messy or as simple as you want it to be.
It all depends on what your going to be using the model for.
Example, video game models are low poly, and have the bare mimimun,
For stills, if it looks good, then its fine.
For a detailed model, you can use sculpting, or you can use topology to bring out the muscle shapes.
What I don’t like about your above shot, is that some of the edges are to close together, try cleaning them up.
So they progress smoothly.
For info on human topology a couple of useful threads that show poly flow.
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=25&t=38469&page=1&pp=15
https://market.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2745839
This is an example of simplified topology
Richard
I’m aiming for a detailed model, using topology for the muscle shapes as cire792 said.
I think I agree with Richard about your topo being too messy. Your loops are all rather zig-zaggy and some come to fairly “random” end points, though this may not really be a problem if using a subsurface modifier. However, fixing that will make your mesh look a lot cleaner and make it easier later on if you should decide to use it as a base mesh. It would also be beneficial to space out your poly’s a bit more evenly, which helps if you are going to be doing any UV texturing and once again results in a cleaner looking mesh.
How’s this?
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One of the things you can learn to do is isolate your topology. There are two ways to do this basically:
- Spread the loops apart in a fan-like fashion away from the area of detail.
In your example you have some loops coming around from the front. They should be expanded or eliminated.
- Eliminate loops by terminating them in a Step Down fashion.
STEP DOWN:
Stepping down Stepping down is the process of taking your high detail areas and reducing the polys so that the over all mesh area is less dense. And again in doing so you create more 5 poly points and, depending on your method, perhaps triangles.
Here is a simple progression:
The end result is stepped down and expanded.
This process used on a human hand:
Note that the step down happens at the knuckles where the bumps this creates are taken advantage of.
Nothing wrong with doing muscle groups.
But for each group, clearly define an edge loop like you have for the shoulder. Then keep it nice and clean. Don’t let other loops wrap around and spoil what you are working on for the back.
I did not do much on the back of this character. But the following images are to illustrate that each area of the anatomy I am trying to portray be it muscle or bone, is clearly defined by a simple edge loop.
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to be blunt it is a mess =)
but to be constructive, I am almost certain you do the beginners mistake.
You got awesome tips from Richard already, but I think its a matter of technique for you =)
Do NOT edit your topology with “apply modifier to editing cage during edit mode” turned on.
If it looks coherent in angled edit mode, it looks all nice with subsurf on.
If you got the subsurf cage turned on in edit mode and push’n’pull your vertices around you end up with a mess your picture shows. I was there too =)
The thing is I already make use of the technique (or at least a variation of it) that Richard Culver described. When I edit the model that I’m working on, I always, always keep the modifier turned off, so I don’t know why you’re telling me to keep it turned off.
Here’s a new version, using the technique that Richard Culver suggested for getting rid of thous three triangles.
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Yeah that is better because you now at least have a loop around the lower part of the shoulder blade.
There are other parts of it that just don’t do anything to help the flow. For instance I mentioned you have horizontal rings, several of them going across the back.
What are they defining?
If nothing, then why are they there? They are close together and are part of what makes it look “messy”
Messy means basically you have not defined specific polyflow. Everything should be there for a purpose. Especially in an organic character where you can not get away with it, you just cant have loops that wrap around because there is nothing else to do with them.
There was a great thread here a while ago where a guy was experimenting with creating the muscle groups first separately and then joining them.
I can’t find that but this thread might be a good read:
http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?t=163056&highlight=muscle+groups&page=3
I can point out some of your problem areas:
Around the neck, the polygons get too wide, you need to define the spine up to the atlas (where the spine runs into the skull)
Your shoulder topology will deform unclean. You need to make a nice overlap between the shoulder muscle, the bizeps, trizeps and the bladebone.
IMO the perfect solution is to make them each a nice loop, but overlap them into each other
Looking at your topo on the shoulder I can spot the n-pole. It is the one where 5 edges flow in, I am sure you spot it too. This is the pole where the shoulder joint should bend around, in my experience it shows just nice deformations… so yours would be too far up and a bit too much away from the bladebone.
I find it much easier to make the shoulder topology with the arms pointing down ~20 degrees, rather than having them 90° off the spine, especially because skinning them later is a pain, as you mostly have arms hanging down when walking, standing and so on, and then you need to strech the shoulder polygons to the maximum from 90° off the spine to parallel to the spine. Its nearly impossible to get nice deformations then.
Then there is this horizontal polygon loop around the body, right under the bladebones on your topo.
Thats not good. Also the longish polys above it, between the bladebones. You “vandalized” the latismus dorsi =) From beneath the Bladebones its a nice flow towards the spine. The second flow is the ribcage away from the spine, curved around the side, just as your own ribs run.
And the ribcage loop on the backside is going too far down. Grab your own back, you´ll notice you got no ribs down where you got the loop which defines the edge of the ribcage.
I´d recommend to get some anatomical reference, showing the skeleton, muscle layers and fatdistribution. It actually helps a lot. Staring at such a reference long enough makes you take the human apart pice by piece (sounds like a butcher), cutting it into nice pieces and sooner or later you´ll see all the loops clearly. Once you see an idea of topology with your imaginary eye, you can use all the techniques to bring it to life.
And never be discuraged getting critique on organic topology, there is no perfect topo, there are bad ones, good ones, better ones, and those perfect for the given application (still, animation, game mesh) and over all, organic - especially human modelling is the ultimate challenge… at least thats the way I see it.
I´d define “best” topology by:
Achieving the most realistic look with the least amount of polys possible that will deform in a beautiful and natural manor while perfectly imitating the natures imperfection for maximum realism =)
Last but not least I also got C&C for Richards neck, the front view.
Seems you vandalized the m.sternocleidomastoideus =)
It starts out right from the bottom being mounted at the base of the sternum between the clavicles, but then they run up straight and just dissapear, while actually they run around the neck sideways and end underneath the ears, as those guys are working hard to tilt your head sideways.
However it could be its a stilized character or not finished yet, still it´s just to have said it =)
Cool. Good point on the neck. Come to think of it, yeah that’s right. I wonder what I was thinking? I knew someone was going to catch something. lol. In any case I did not load the images for critique because I knew they were not perfect. I was mainly pointing out that the loops need to be where intended - as you said. To segue back to the topic. Though I had it wrong on that part, the loops are clear are exactly as I intended - however incorrect. :rolleyes:
Yeh, I was aware you´r pics where not for C&C here.
Was merely pointing the flaw out for the “noobs” that will “stumboogle” over it, not to copycat it 
Back to topic, a nice advice is to:
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get an anatomy book of some kind
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use makehuman and look at the topology of the peeps popping out there, they´r good
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create a free account on daz3d, they often have freebies like Victoria and Michael, granted they are for poser, but if you unpack them, its an array of .obj files you can import to blender. They got an applied subsurf modifier on them, but you can see the topology still pretty clear and those models are mostly very, very good.
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check out as many organic modeling threads as possible and just inhale the screenshots =)
Basically, if your base topology is good, you can make all of it. Male, female, fat, stlim, tall, short. Just a matter of arranging the loops then - the basic loops are the same for all of them.
Get it done right once, you can reuse your humanoid basemodel just by reshaping it to fit your reference.
And don´t be afraid to delete large portions of your mesh if it does not add up as intended - often its faster to redo a portion than fiddling around for aeons.
Yes. Excellent point. In that case I should have mentioned it was not an example for anatomy because I knew already it was not perfect.
Anyway. Great pointers.
I think what might be needed is some practical examples.
By the way,Krisnack:
Can you draw what your intended muscle group is? Or at least what shapes your are trying to go for?
I mean would you be able to sketch that over the picture of the model?
If not the references would help.
But if you can sketch what your intended form is, we can help you sketch out the polyflow.
Much of the reason that my mesh look the way it does is because of a critque by ZombieJohn (here’s a link to it, by the way) where it was suggested that I put in the two rings and the ribcage flow. Was his information incorrect, because that’s what you seem to be saying. Who should I believe, you or him?
Although I do agree about the n-pole, and intend to make adjustments to it.
Well, looking at your mesh again, it basically looks quite good for the ribcage. ZJ did a good job tutoring you =)
I guess I was seeing ghosts, as you cut off your shot before the pelvic bone, so it looked to me as if the ribcage goes down much too far :eyebrowlift2: re-adjusting eyes
And you cant imply I say his information is wrong, I would just have set the loops slightly different, especially in the “bladebone-polybandaroundthebody”- area where it seems like the loops are broken apart.
And you got to admit your ribcage area is hard to “understand” it partly looks a bit accordion-ish jk
Yes but are you modeling the rib cadge or the back? The back is covered by muscle and you don’t see the cadge. (in most cases)
And if you do see hints of them under it is like this:
The shoulder muscles are too thick and the lower cadge is exposed which curves upward.
Here’s the adjustments I made to the neck area.
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