What is it with Volunteer works?!

General Forums Off-topic Chat
21

Ok, if you really want to go there- how about this, I currently work as a web developer. I just got laid off yesterday from a company where I had just finished moving all the systems to an automated versioning and building system that was already doubling the profit per web project in terms of time saved. My reward? They posted a job posting for my job position with a 15k pay cut, then sacked me because they couldn’t afford to pay my salary. You don’t know what you’re talking about. And you’re being really offensive to those of us who do actually work in the real world.

Please go live in your fantasy rainbow world where corporations are your best friend and hard work is rewarded somewhere else. It’s not helpful or wanted here

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22

This isn’t the case, at all. It may or may not happen in the future, but it has barely made a dent across all CG-related industries.

The modern corporate employee model in a lot of industries that deliver large, multi-year projects on a deadline. Large companies ramp up/down staff at different stages of a project. Companies take on temp staff to hit targets and lay them off again when the project is winding down. Happens all the time.

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You not the only one who have expirience. I work in many companys and saw a lot of fired people. Waste majority of them was person who dont make real impact.
All of them who was fired have at least one company who more than happy to hire them in the same day.

Where? By saying what a lot of employe can be easilly replaced even by less payed one - im not offence anyone. This how the world are working.

I will decide by myself is it valuable here or not. Until i keep everything polite which i do i can freely speak here.

24

I think that when it comes to jobs, there should be three primary categories.

• Employment (Freelance Hire / Contract Work)
When there is some sort of work with precise monetary offer.

• Investment Employment
When there is a work, but with future monetary prospects.

• Volunteering
This 100% for training, practice, hobby, etc.

In that sense where the actual problem begins, is that Investment/Volunteering are colliding. These somehow give false signals, and case various misunderstandings or misconceptions. I think that all people up to some point are good-willing, however when various mentalities collide with each other, is not odd to lead to certain misunderstandings about how things roll.

So to make a better explanation:

• Employment: Here things are very clear, and nobody will make a mistake.

• Investment: Here everybody will be very aware and know better what they are up to, if the offer suits them, how to manage risk, how to open up to new and future potential opportunities. All of these are based on a decision of the person who is willing to participate in such collaborations.

(And do not take these lightly, the most successful collaboration in recent history happened in the game “RainWorld” where the main programmer and a sound artist, worked diligently for many months and delivered perhaps one of the most impressive indie games).

However in this case it must be stated clearly that this is not VOLUNTEERING, is most closer to INVESTMENT of current time, with the prospect of future potential success.

• Volunteering: This is only a matter of people getting to know each other, forming strong communities of common interests, perhaps deriving with some sort of end product. Perhaps this somehow collides with INVESTMENT, but is only to protect newcomers, so they are not promised millions of dollars before a default cube is placed on the scene. Everybody will participate here for the sake of it, and this has nothing to do with monetary gains. People shall not expect to gain any money from this.

Perhaps you might say that some companies/individuals might exploit the system in order to get free hands. No! They must be either willing to work in community projects (ie: making models for the open source game TuxKart or something), or they are from organizations/heritage/museums etc.

If we talk about a very ambitious individual who has the vision of making the next big thing, we are not talking about volunteers, we talk about investment in this case.

I am not saying things in absolute terms, but you get the picture, that things have to be cleared up a bit in order for misunderstandings are prevented.

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25

I think everone has to decide for her/himself for what (s)he want’s to volounteer…

…( why is there a discussion about this anyway ??? )

And… you can;t expect anything if you volounteer… because then it is not volunteering…

:person_shrugging:

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26

In my country for instance many productions are currently frozen or postponed, as a result there is much less work in an industry that is already weirdly balanced with a lot of junior artists and less seniors.
As a result, a lot more artists working in animation are currently looking for a job, and it’s very likely that 5 years ago most of them would have landed a position.

Yeah currently it’s not the best time to start a career … in the meantime what would we do without video games, movies and series? so it’s very likely to get better at some point.

But we should also acknowledge that a lot of people what to work in the entertainment industry. Nowadays everyone can grab blender and learn by themselves. As a return there is a lot of wanna be artists and landing a first job might be long and tough.
If they are ok to wait maybe 2/3 years and keep practicing in the meantime it can probably end up working.
Things generally get easier once you worked on a few projects, so if you are super passionate it might be worth insisting… if not it might be better consider something else that is less trendy.

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27

All of this is true for sure. But i think we need some clarify here, because (at least for me) it looks like difinition issue.
It looks like some people mean what just the fact what someone looking for a job, are mean what he really struggle with it and it tooks month to find a new position and they stand right at the line of poverty.
Meanwhile i never heard about any really (again - really) skilled artist who loose his job and cant find new one.
And yes, some people loose the job, but if they are good - they able to find new one.
Also as i mentioned before its a two way to make a money for a living - find a job (i.e. permanent) or just sell 3d models or any other art related stuff on marketplaces.
So a lot of artist are basically unemployed at all and make good and stable income from marketplaces. You wouldnt find their portfolios or CV because they dont even want to be hired. Im personally know people like that and they absolutely doesnt care about being hired because for them its a slavery and nothing else.

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Here ? In this forum ?? Simple… it’s not paid.

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29

Well for sure seasoned rock star artists tend to keep their jobs, it’s a bit more sad for the average artist who is good but doesn’t stand out that much among others.
For them finding a job is some kind of lottery with less chances to win as there is less projects to work on.

Basically on a series or movie project (don’t know about videogame since I didn’t worked there) there is a lot of need for average artist that will do the boring work. Generally really good artist would avoid these position but it’s always possible to find good and reliable artists that are ok with this kind of job and can deliver.

these artists also deserve a correct living as we all do, and I wouldn’t be surprised if a bunch of those look for other kind of jobs by the time the current crisis is over.
But anyway we’re getting of topic there so I’ll probably stop this interesting but depressing debate that probably deserve it’s own topic…

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A lot of this work - manual retopology and UVs - is outsourced at large game studios.

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31

Fun fact: what one person might found boring… another one could get very exited about ( and this is even true in several meanings ) :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

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32

I’m one of those people who has always enjoyed doing UVs. :upside_down_face:

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33

Interesting !
In animation there is a lot of monkey work, like in a series you might end up working for 6/8 month adjusting DOF and turning sunlight on each shots.
Or shot troubleshooting, setting line thickness on a NPR render, stuff like that.

On some projects doing the layout can be a bit boring too (shot setup before animation), but it’s probably more satisfying than these other tasks.

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34

Me too. Outside of my 3D Modeling App on my phone (for obvious reasons), UV Mapping in Blender, Maya, or anything else seems more than intuitive enough compared to what we had even 6 or 7 years ago. I do enjoy rigging and weight painting too in small doses, though I need to get in the habit of giving myself far more time for manual weight painting that will cause me less issues in the actual animation phase.

I think I taught myself box- and subD-modeling because I absolutely DESPISE the process of retopology, though. I’d rather get the topology perfectly usable from the start and then either sculpt the details after or paint in the normal maps. It also makes creating simple cartoon characters and props with strong, easy-to-read shape language easier by using the absolute bare minimum of polygons from the start, rather than breaking my wrists constantly smoothing out “lumps” in a sculpt.

Different strokes for different folks, of course–I’m sure you of all BA regulars would disagree with my workflow–but sculpting only to then spend even more time retopologizing the sculpt to actually be usable sounds like the equivalent of eating an ice cream dessert first, but then having to eat your broccoli (or worse, exercise harder the next day to lose the extra weight) afterwards, imo.

35

To shift the discussion back to experiences with volunteer works, I’m starting to suspect myself that I may be currently stuck in a volunteer group project that, while in no way is it a scam, it does seem to be made by people who seem to have even less of an idea of how a proper production works than I do. On one hand, I did sign a proper legal contract, and assuming the project doesn’t fail, I could be busy with this project for the next 4 years of my life before I need to start looking into other work again, which of course sounds extremely appealing compared with how many layoffs the western video game industry has been suffering since 2023, if not sooner. But on the other hand, I was pretty alarmed when I was given my first 2D concept to model and it looked like it was drawn by a 7-year-old on lined school paper (and of course, I had to constantly make changes to the design, for no pay, because I could only guess what the more-polished version of the design could look like with so little information).

The Discord where the producers were giving me my assignments was constantly abuzz with activity and discussion in the first 2 or so months, but seems to have gone silent without so much as a hint of a new assignment for me or others since the start of this year. I may have to ask the director at some point if the project is merely on hiatus while they figure out the story (oh yeah, we also started the 3D work without a story or finalized 2D designs), or if there is a sign the project may become vaporware and I should ask if it’s okay if I put the models I did make and texture for the project on my portfolio, so that I at least get something out of it in the end (I do tend to produce my best work when working for and pushed by others). There are plenty of personal project ideas I have put on hold to dedicate my limited free time to this project, so ANY clarity on whether it’s even still happening and when I can expect more assignments in the future would be nice.

So yeah, this thread might be useful for me in my current predicament, which is starting to sound exactly what the OP was talking about. I’m sure there are many of you more experienced with this stuff than me that are shaking your heads in disbelief as you read this, I could use some help in this type of scenario.

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36

I do not disagree at all. I’m a firm believer in modeling what is needed, instead of sculpting something that is not and then doing a retopo on it.

(I’m saying this as it applies to my own work, not the rest of the world.)

But in terms of the world of beginners - I do find it not great, that many seem to only focus on scultp/retopo for most everything they do. When they’ll post an issue they’re (predictably) having with shading, or weights, or rigging - whenever I point to “try modeling, instead of what you’re doing” - invariably, the response is usually “but I like sculpting more.”

Ok, well… enjoy the pain, then.

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37

No, I wouldn’t disagree with anyone’s workflow. I wouldn’t tell any artist to work one way or the other. I would advise based on my own experience, but as we’ve all said on here: NONE of this stuff is set in stone with strict rules. Are there guidelines and more efficient workflows and methods depending on the subject asset? Yes, but these will differ per artist and whatever way that artist works best and most comfortably.

As for beginners, I would always recommend trying every which way of modeling, sculpting, retopology and everything in between. Find what works best and discard the rest, or pick your tool from a larger toolbox for the project at hand.

Of course, in a pipeline this may be already setup and(as I mentioned above with the manual retopo outsourcing) and pretty much 100% of the time in this scenario the pipeline will be either sculpt first and retopo, or there will be a pre-rigged basemesh for humanoid characters. Then of course there’s also scans and topology wrapping, but obviously for creatures and non-humanoids it will be sculpt/retop. In this sort of pipeline setting nobody is polymodeling this stuff from scratch.

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38

Hm, this sounds a bit like a red flag. From a filmmaking perspective (and I suppose even in games, although I wouldn’t claim any knowledge there) the story should come first - even to check whether it’s worth being told at all -, then the characters to carry the story, then the style and design basics. Doing it differently just invites wasted work for props that are never needed, animations that are cut, and items that just clash in style.

If I were to participate in a volunteer project, my first question would be for the story. And vice versa, I wouldn’t start asking for volunteers before I have worked out my story.

But it’s interesting to hear of projects that at least get off the ground for a while (long enough to get any work done) with volunteer work. I kind of assumed that anything larger than a person-week would require funding and investment beforehand, with all the difficulties, dependencies, and limitations that come along with that.

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39

Well, from what you said I wouldn’t bet on that horse :slight_smile:
But you are in the best position to judge the project and people working on it.

There are a few questions I ask myself when accepting a project in general, but they also apply to volunteer work too, especially since there is no money factor :

  • Do I like the project ?
  • Is it an opportunity to learn something ?
  • Do I like the team, is there a good creative energy ?
  • How experienced are the people I’m going to work for ?
  • Of course, how much I’m going to get paid ?
  • How this project is going to impact my life outside work ? ( stress, overtime…)
  • Is this going to help me get future jobs ? (reference, portfolio)

When accepting a project, it’s a two way interview, you get the job or not, but in the meantime, the company might not get the artist if they don’t have what it takes.

Maybe ask yourself these kind of questions, especially about how experienced is the team, and they should give you better clues about if they deserve you to stay, and how many chances are that the project is going to succeed.

Also, while I could be ok to work for free for a passion project, when there is a commercial counterpart I rarely accept. At least in animation/series while the argument is generally we do the pilot for free but you get to work on the final once it’s sold, the truth is no-one can guaranty you that at this stage of a project. Generally people who buy the project have a lot to say, and they can even buy the general idea and decide to make it by themselves with another studio. As a result creator will be given a nice bank check but there will be nothing for you in return.

Basically it’s the job of producers to find money to create projects, and for a commercial project to succeed you’ll have to hire good artists, which is already hard to find, then it’s even more difficult to find good artists willing to work for free especially for a long period of time. And this include also everything related to the story, the sound, music, voices, beside all the CG pipeline we probably know more.

As a result, a project’s pilot is much more going to succeed if there is money to make it, and even in that case not all of these end up being sold and working.

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40

Unless it’s a tournament/deathmatch game or a puzzle - a story and even a world in those is often just a nice afterthought (from player’s point of view). Not that there are no strong stories in those genres, but the “gameplay” would come first.
Then again, you’d still need some kind of a direction and a plan before asking people to join.

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