Also, to try to avoid a panic, the old keymap still exists as Blender 2.7 keymap. It just might not be default anymore.
Clean things up is often good, like this for example makes totally sense:
Either way, I’m waiting for the industry standard keymap.
Also kinda reminds me of the right click to cancel stuff in blender, it should be the ESC key only imho…
Currently, when grabbing, rotating and scaling (and a few other things) you use Shift-X to move in the Y and Z direction but not X. Really this should be Alt-X as Alt is do-the-reverse-of (Alt-G, returns an object to the centre, Alt-R unrotates, etc)
Just a thought.
What about RMB select? I thought they were going to switch it in 2.8 to LMB. I can’t find it anywhere, but in current blender it’s inconsistent in every editor.
Meh, delete key requires me to lift my hand from the mouse, only to put it right back so I can confirm the delete etc. I’ll have to put ‘X’ back where it belongs
The kicker for this task is what Campbell says:
Note: Currently adding shortcuts in certain cases is difficult and you practically need to be a developer to know to create the keymap item. If we expect users to be more heavily editing their keymaps, we should make it easier to assign keys to toggle booleans, enums - for eg.
Thinking to all the tutorials I’ve watched over the years I can’t help but expect that Step 0 in the video will be to “Apply the 2.7 keymap” so everyone has a baseline etc. and/or ship a custom keymap for your audience, which doesn’t scale well nor does it help since everyone’s would be different again.
The deletion confirmation needs to go, yeah.
Not fond of the X delete removal from default myself.
You’d be surprised how often you can end up using that button while going full swing in any of the editors (node, mesh, dopesheet etc)
Agreed. I’m not a guy who minces his words, and I’d suggest that this change is absolutely ridiculous. Most of the primary shortcuts are clustered around the left side of the keyboard, so to put such an important shortcut on the opposite side is bone headed.
Currently, I have two options:
Take my hand off the left row of the keyboard and reach across to hit the delete key. This is uncomfortable because I work a little distance away from the keyboard and I have to stretch. Also, there are times when my mouse is in a position where I have to lift my left hand over my right arm to reach the delete key.
Take my hand off the mouse to hit the delete key. With both options, I have to take my eyes off the screen in order to locate the delete key. Neither is an optimal solution.
I don’t use other applications often. If hitting the delete key is “industry standard”, then the industry standard is sub optimal in comparison to Blender. There’s a reason Blender has a reputation for being fast - let’s not sacrifice that for some misguided notion about industry acceptance.
I’ll not mince words either, the move to remove x as delete is not ridiculous at all.
The “backspace” is a universal key for “removal/going back”, that is why its used for it regardless of application. Thus its about as obvious as using the space bar for…well adding spaces. Its not a crazy concept.
Now if you must absolutely use your “left hand” for pressing “delete”, not sure why, but if you must, then there are quite a few great options to making it more convenient for you. The first and most obvious one is to simply add your own hotkey for it. This is part of the point of the newer minimalized keymap, there is more room for custom keys. The second option is to use a keyboard with all those lovely macro keys on the left, which gives you even more custom keys to work with. The third is to simply have a pie menu for it, so press key + stroke in direction gets same result.
Now if you tend to be like a lot of other users out there, maybe even use a pen tablet all the time (highly recommended), using the right hand to press delete while left hand is still on left side of the keyboard is generally the way to go.
Its a great design choice to remove the previous x = delete when looking at it that way. X is prime realestate on the keyboard after all and few if any applications would waste or use it for delete (whose use is highly dependent upon the user). It would be bad to have it delete since its easy to hit, especially if the “would you like to delete this” pop up is removed (which it should be).
Perhaps a better approach is to suggest/recommend Blender find a way to have copy, cut and paste functionality tied to control + c, x and v, thus letting control + x serve a dual purpose of deleting while also storing whats deleted for use in pasting later if the user chooses to do so. This way you get your cake and get to eat it too (and its standard behavior for keyboard shortcuts).
If you look at the commit logs though, 2.8 will contain the 2.7x keymap as an option (though it will probably not be the default).
In that case, I wouldn’t be surprised to see ‘X’ as delete if you choose it.
The “backspace” is a universal key for “removal/going back”, that is why its used for it regardless of application. Thus its about as obvious as using the space bar for…well adding spaces. Its not a crazy concept.
Left click is also a universal key for selecting things, yet blender doesn’t follow that paradigm. Blender isn’t other applications. Let’s not pretend it is.
Now if you must absolutely use your “left hand” for pressing “delete”, not sure why…
Because I like to keep one hand on the keyboard and one hand on the mouse as much as humanly possible. If I have to take one hand off, it’s usually the left one, because, as I said, most of the important shortcuts are on the left hand side of the keyboard, including the Ctrl and Alt buttons. I’ve been using Blender for something like 18 years, and it has trained my mind to work this way.
I’m aware of all the workarounds. I’m questioning the logic of changing something to fit into an industry standard which isn’t necessarily better.
.X is prime realestate on the keyboard after all
Which is precisely why using it for such an important function like delete was a great idea.
Messing with the keymap can cause conflicts down the line. Let me give you one example. I use HardOps for modelling, which uses Q to invoke the main menu. Now that Q is used for favourites, that conflict will need to be addressed. The same applies to the X key, which I assume is going to be used for something else now.
Sorry, but saying “X software does it this way” is not a compelling argument to me.
There is another compelling reason to change the keymap, the fact that so many key and key combos were taken meant that new functions often had to be assigned combos of 3 to 4 keys (if they even got one at all). In addition, a lot of addons used the ‘Q’ key because it was literally the last single key without an assignment (that point was mentioned in previous threads).
With the minimal keymap, more addons can have single-key function access and multiple addons can be activated without conflicts for starters.
So x for delete has gone, but does anyone know if ctrl+x for dissolve/context sensitive delete is still there? I use regular delete often (mostly by pressing delete to get the menu), but ctrl+x for dissolving verts, edges etc. in edit mode is completely indispensible. If it’s kept on a comfortable shortcut, I guess I can handle that, but if it ends up being something ridiculous like ctrl+backspace, then I will be unhappy with the defaults.
The only default I change in Blender 2.79 (aside from a few performance options) is right>left select, so some of the new key changes are a little worrying, since it seems I’m already going to have to rebind search from ~ to something that exists in a sensible location on my particular keyboard.
Yeah, I’m a little worried about this. I thought the simpler default map was a good idea, but I hope the default map is not too heavily stripped down. I think the focus should be on removing basically redundant shortcuts (ctrl+q to quit, for example), or things that can be accessed very quickly from menus that have shortcuts (move to specific layer can be done by the layer menu very quickly, and 1-0 for layers makes no sense with the current collection design anyway).
Left click is also going into 2.8, so that argument goes out the window. Lets not pretend open source software never changes, or that direction never changes. Can’t use that, “blender is different” argument anymore. Blender is growing up.
Well in that case, I would question any developer’s motive which seeks to make design decisions based on one or two users feelings/preferences. Its not a solid argument to say “this is what I got used to, this is what I like” as the basis for deciding what is good or bad design.
The new keymap is done precisely so that there will be less “conflicts” down the line. So you should be happy, they are solving the problem for you.
Personal preference as the basis for what is good or bad design is simply not a good argument. Its just being stubborn and hating change. A good argument is that its being left open enough so that you can customize it to your liking, furthermore with legacy keymaps present, the need to resist stubbornly goes out the window.
Honestly, you should be happy with whats going on. This is good for blender, and you will be just fine when all is said and done. Some level of adaptability is important.
“Industry Standard” is a flimsy argument at best. All it is is a set of arbitrary conventions centered aroud people who don’t want to learn a new layout. The “Industry standard” will also no doubt be available regardless anyway, in alternative keymaps. Adhering to old man conventions should not come at the expense of finding new, better, faster workflows.
Having X marked for delete in a keymap makes it no more or less available as a new hotkey for people who don’t use it. If you don’t use X for delete in your workflow (firstly, I encourage you to try it), then you can easily and safely remap that key using the given tools to any number of functions you desire. Furthermore, if we just setup an “Industry Standard” keymap, then you can start from there, I’m sure X won’t be used for delete on that keymap.
A pie menu would conflict with the ‘confirm’ dialogue, since you’re waving the mouse around at the time.
Good for you! Guess what? That button still works anyway!
And as I sad, you are free to reassign the X key.
You know, its hardly more difficult to press ‘delete, Enter’, than it is to simple press ‘delete’. The buttons are literally right next to eachother.
I see no reason to remove the popup - since the Blender devs decided to shirk “Industry Standard” and not use the standard message-box style confirmation dialogue. The confirm button is literally right under the mouse - taking naught but a left click to confirm if you don’t move your hand from the mouse, which is easier when delete is available with the left hand, I might add.
It takes 0 time to confirm, and It is incredibly handy for not only the immediate feedback that your ‘delete’ has been registered, but that you can cancel that action - in the event that you do accidentally try and delete a dense complex mesh that takes a minute to load. If you’re deleting something that is hard to see - it also grants some confirmation feedback that the command was actually carried out when the dialogue box closes.
I’m also sure there are a myriad of times that people have been saved from an iffy undo operation because that extra dialogue box saved them.
I’m assuming you want this to work for objects, mesh data, verticies and the like?
This is an example of a “standard” that simply doesn’t integrate into the core way blender works.
How would you handle duplicate-linked (copy-linked), as opposed to just duplicating?
Where would you put the pasted item?
How does cut even make sense, why wouldn’t you just move the thing to where you want it?
copy and paste already exist in blender - where it makes sense for it to, for values and fields it works even better than most programs, since the devs made is so we can just copy and paste fields by hovering over them rather than going into the field and highlighting the text. Another “Industry standard” broken for the better.
All of the arguments I’ve seen for changing the default keymap to some “standard” can be turned on their head. The largest one, that the existing keymap will exist as a preset is the most baffling. Why don’t we keep the default, and make the ‘standard’ a preset? It’s arbitrary.
Except that it isnt.
Here is what I’d love to see from Blender 2.8 with regards to keymaps and control layouts:
- 2.7x remain the default.
In 10 years, I want the average blender user to be using a common set of controls - this has a myriad of benefits, not least of which is that tutorials make sense, and users can switch between workstations without issue. This is currently the case, most blender users use the default keymap and maybe change it slightly.
They can do this, because the default keymap covers most to all actions you could want in a fast workflow using the left hand - if it didn’t, people would move away from it as they get faster with Blender.
Having a minimal default keymap, I can see users ending up either selecting a keymap arbitrarily when they want more functions on the keyboard, setting it up themselves at some point in time, or setting it up as they go - resulting in a more-or-less random keymap which is likely entirely different from the user sitting next to them. common ground would be gone
A Minimalist keymap hardly benefits new users either. Shortcuts they don’t know hardly affect them, and when they find a function in the menus that they want to be on a shortcut, they would either need to assign it somewhere, or switch the keymap. Instead of right now, where the shortcut for any function in the menus is clearly displayed next to the function if a new user wants to start using a shortcut for that function. In my opinion it would be of more benefit to new users to have a fully fledged keymap on default simply so when they go looking for a shortcut, there is one, and a good one at that.
- Keymaps be placed prominently on the splash screen, with “minimalist”, “Industry standard” (Maya/Max etc), “Blender Pro” (Blender 2.7x) Listings.
First of all, 2.7x should be clearly listed as “Blender Pro” or some similar name, instead of being treated as some legacy control scheme. It immediately lets users know that this is the keymap layout that experienced blender users tout for their ‘fast workflow’, and if they aren’t using it, they know they may not be able to achieve the same workflow other blender users do.
Furthermore, If another control scheme is set as default, this gives the experienced ‘pro’ users a default, a consistent starting point that all high level blender users will more or less take on. A studio can with confidence set their workstations to “Blender Pro”, and expect most of their artists who use blender will be familiar enough with the control scheme to not need to change it or have their own unique scheme. This is blender’s ‘experienced user’ standard keymap - the name should reflect that.
Since these are all displayed prominently on the splash screen, no-one can complain anymore about the control scheme. You want standard controls? BAM!, There, right when you open up Blender, just select standard. Minimalist provides the ‘less confusing’ sort of keymap I think the devs are shooting for, aswell as providing a base for making any personal keymap, and with it being non-default, it doesn’t stifle users just wanting to know the keyboard shortcuts for a function.
Note: A dropdown box does this a disservice in that people won’t see at-a-glance the major options. the point is to show the options, prominently, not just have them available. People should understand the meaning behind these options the second they open up blender and look at the splash screen.
And since someone brought up left-click:
- I’d like to see the left/right click select option prominently on the splash screen aswell, with “Seperate Action/Selection” as it’s own option. When you select either of the three keymap layouts, it should automatically, visibly, switch these options around too. Making keymaps more like ‘control presets’.
I was originally going to make the argument that using left-click select would also have it’s issues, that people would just complain that painting is now on the right mouse button etc etc. But I realised I haven’t ever tried it.
So I tried it.
Playing around for 10 minutes, I actually started adapting pretty quickly, though I surmise that it’d take a while to adapt properly. I notice that using left-select actually combines action and selection in a number of cases - meaning you use strange things like ctrl-click to select bones in modes such as the weight paint editor, which means selection isn’t standardised when using that control scheme anyway (select isn’t always left-click).
Anyway, since this is how Blender currently treats left-click select, as more of a toggle for action/selection separation than actually swapping the mouse buttons, we should visibly purposefully indicate that distinction. Make Right/Left mouse select arbitrary, whilst the main factor people care about (“The standard”) is the action/selection setting.
Doing so would visibly give an indication to the specific difference between “Industry standard” left-click, and “Blender Pro” right-click. Again, allowing users to understand that Blender has a control system that is setup to be fast when action and selection are separated, and it’s what the pros use when they talk about Blender’s fast workflow.
Wish I knew how to email this to the devs. I might look into it.
It seems like the keymap changes will go through the same process as we’ve seen many times over the years.
- Changes to core Blender functionality is proposed
- The old guard grandstands against said changes and argues why they shouldn’t happen
- The changes go through, people enjoy it, no more arguments against it.
This is a process we’ve seen with many features and changes.
- GI is for lazy lighters, people use the heck out of it now using Cycles
- Ngons are for lazy modelers, people use the heck of them when modeling now
- Raytraced reflections instead of env. maps retard the ability to exact artistic direction, people used them like crazy anyway.
- Horizontal UI’s (as in 2.4x) are superior, few people miss it.
- Left-click and a few more standard keys, the same might happen later this year.
My quick proposals as to the guidelines for keymap building.
- Ditch the hotkeys for operations that can be highly destructive (saving, saving a new startup .blend, and quitting is accessible enough through other means). This saves space anyway.
- Make some hotkeys context based (ie. are you in vertex, edge, or face mode). This will save space so more operations can have keys.
- Save more space and have some tools easily accessible via context detection, which feeds into a right-click menu for suggested tools (do you have two face islands selected in different areas but kind of facing each other, the menu would have the bridge tool in the list).
These are my opinions anyway.
The keymap isn’t really the issue in my opinion. A minimal keymap seems an odd choice as most users will have to customise it massively… the industry standard keymap is doomed because you quickly realise that there is no industry standard… I’ve read the proposals and have big doubts (I’ve used blender max, Maya and lightwave side by side for years there is more difference between hotkeys than consensus)
As I see it blender has the most flexible keymap editor out there but that is a double edged sword as it is also the most arcane with all the different contexts between the editors.
It was reassuring to see ton tweet that They are looking in to making it more easy to customise whilst maintaining flexibility.
Why has right click select stuck for so long?
Because of the concept in blender of action action mouse and selection mouse then switching to left click select in the preferences makes many contexts weird. It’s a thorny can of worms. To mix metaphors lol.
Rather than a minimal keymap it would be interesting to see how selection and action can be combined to the same mouse button and what that means for blender.
Blender has a fluid immediacy when you know it well… this goes beyond a hotkey driven workflow. Let’s face it, all apps have keyboard shortcuts that can be customised it always seems a fallacy that some blender users think it’s unique.
Years ago I made an experimental keymap that had left mouse click and drag be box select, clicking on empty space be deselect and for viewnav be identical to maya whilst also having blender nav emulate three button mouse version… what maintaining right click select. It was quite nice for many as it’s the mutant child of blender Maya and lightwave all in one…
Before we got the new modal tools I thought that 2.8 could ditch the action vs selection thing but seeing them in action right click select seems to make more sense and be a better choice ironically. That could be solved by forcing users to use the widgets rather than click anywhere as now but that does seem that in many cases it will kill blenders immediacy which I alluded to before.
So selection and action need a consistent way of working in all editors on the same mouse button. That is worth breaking convention for… else give me the old keymap.
I agree quit and save startup are likely rarely used. save and save-as are probably common enough to stay though, In my opinion. You save a lot when you’re doing anything you think might crash blender.
What hotkey operations are used in vertex mode, but aren’t useful in face mode? do you have a few examples?
I think the search menu (currently on tilde - the key it’s on is a separate issue) might be a better place for context-sensitive suggested operations. RMB menu only works if you’re using a control scheme that combines selection and action (currently, left click in preferences).
Or maybe make it a part of the new favourites menu.
Yawn. Lots of posturing, some passive aggressive wording and a few arguments that boil down to “I hate change, even if its options I hate it, it shouldn’t exist…”
First, lets get this out of the way. The changes are happening, whether you like it or not. So even if one types up a storm, yells from the tallest roof, it is simply not going to stop the changes. One reason being, they are planning for users to adapt their own hotkeys around a slimmed down optional keymap. If someone is too lazy to set even one hotkey they obsess over, then they should really rethink the technical art field…
With that out of the way. Yes there is an industry standard. There are standards all over the place, not just with software and they are based around familiarity, which in turn increases comprehension, communication, and usability. Again, no matter how many times some people whine and scream about it being a myth, its not going to change the fact that the standards are there. You don’t have to like them, but they do exist.
When users flip between multiple applications, from a 3D modeler to a game engine, to a texturing software, to a sculpting application… there will be observable patterns in interface, in navigation, in how one uses these packages. Blender is not an island on its own. Someone going from Blender to Unreal or Unity are going to find some very similar navigation and hotkeys that can be found in Maya. Why do many applications offer optional maya navigation (including blender)? Because it makes the pipeline better. It is objectively better for a user to use the same navigation approach between applications. This is a set of standards you start seeing pop up.
Again, why are some of you not clicking on this? https://developer.blender.org/T54963
It literally shows familiar and common approaches shared between applications and finds the average based on those details. That begets a standard. It is shared behavior, concepts, approaches…ect
Changes are happening regardless of the moaning and groaning. There will be options to keep what you like, or people will create the “old” stuff you demand so dearly. This is same old hyperbolic reactions we saw with 4.5, with the addition of n-gons and so forth… we will see it again with the shift between 2.79 and 2.8. This is just another repeat of the same old temper tantrums of the past which, quite frankly, can give the Blender community a bad image.
Relax, take a deep breath.
Stop being a Smeagle hopping up and down about “my preciousss”.
Its happening no matter what. Good things will come from these changes.
Its going to be okay!
I haven’t seen anyone say or imply this in this thread.
Yes, changes are happening, so what better time to discuss them? Again, no-one here is asking for nothing to change.
I myself posted an argument that questions whether having users create their own keymaps over time from a minimal layout is better, as default, than having one fully functional from the get-go - I haven’t asked them not to create a minimal layout that people can use to build upon in the event they want to build their own keymap.
Your “lazy” argument works both ways. Regardless of the default, someone will have to add or remove the hotkey that they do or don’t want. The argument means literally nothing, it’s equal from both sides for keeping or removing any particular single hotkey. A better question is to ask whether it is objectively better or worse for a specific hotkey to remain or be removed from the minimal keymap.
If standards are never challenged, progress is never made. Blender is going through this right now, we’re challenging the “Blender Standard”, and in turn hopefully making progress.
I don’t see anyone complaining that we’re getting an “Industry Standard” keymap. Michael_W did point out it might be difficult since other applications don’t always agree anyway.
Again, changes are happening, so what better time to discuss them?
This thread is more about the default, which is currently the minimal. Some people have expressed that they don’t want minimal to neuter a few common shortcuts, it should remove uncommon ones. I think those of us that do, beleive it should remain functionally fast to work in whilst removing some excess shortcuts, and we’re voicing our opinion on that.
Options are good, they’re great even!. And in my opinion, if they’re presented prominently and clearly at startup, I won’t actually care about the default all that much, since people will know which keymap they’re using, and what it means. By that token, the minimal keymap should probably include “minimal” in it’s name - even if it is the default.
I see no temper tantrums in this thread, just discussion, discussion I think most of us hope will be productive.