2.8 Default Keymap

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(xrg) #95

Xerox Star mouse had two buttons. I don’t know why Apple decided to go with one.

Either way, it’s sort of off-topic. 99.999% of software, everything from Starcraft to File Managers uses LMB to select stuff, LMB+drag to box-select, so on and so forth. I’m for breaking conventions if there is something better, but I don’t consider Blender’s selection paradigm better. It’s so complicated you can’t even put it in a clean chart.


(SaintHaven) #96

Speaking of Xerox, time to go back through memory lane… Was the right mouse even used heavily back then? Looking back on the interactions, they seemed to have relied more on specific hotkeys. Interesting stuff…

Add: Seems the move to one button for apple was that it was supposed to be “easy to use”, they wanted to keep it simple. https://web.stanford.edu/dept/SUL/sites/mac/primary/interviews/ideo/button.html

Starcraft and much of the RTS genre in general is also an interesting observation, never really thought about it before but in retrospect, they also separated the selection from the action. Only the left mouse was for selection and right mouse being action.


(Antaioz) #97
  1. I included a message about the advocated way of making LMB default because it was relevant and related directly to this topic thread. The argument about whether separating action and selection has benefits is less topic-relevant.
    Also, I had quoted the post recently, and the recent set of posts were directly related to my recent set of postings regarding the mouse.

  2. To be honest, I genuinely did not know that. I still maintain that other packages seem to revolve more around the ‘active tool’ style workflows much more than Blender does, and as a result the widget typically plays a much larger part.

  3. I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make by linking this.
    For what it’s worth it seems like for the most part some decent features, and should help users transition from other software packages. the only point of contention is if it hides or makes harder to access any common useful items that were on the toolbar, but the devs are aware of that and I believe they’re working to find a good balance.


(SaintHaven) #98

After looking at the link, do you still feel point 2 cannot answer point 3? =) They are directly related. The difference is not as drastic as you may think, it was just that the widgets in other applications were never really seen as a problem.


(Antaioz) #99

Do the widgets and selection areas in other applications have a smaller activation area than Blender?

I find that often Blender’s widget gets in the way of setting the 3d cursor, I can only imagine it would get in the way similarly for selecting. But I beleive this might be due to the large activation areas they each have. The separation of these into individual modes I suppose solves the 3d cursor issue somewhat, but if you use the new tools, you’re probably still going to be selecting things near the manipulator gizmo while in the ‘move’ tool.

image
In this example, it’s currently difficult if not impossible to select 4 out of 6 of the nearby vertices. This hasn’t changed in 2.8 if you’re in the ‘move’ tool, likely worse if you’re in the ‘transform’ tool.

It’s also possible other software solves the issue by having click->drag activate the manipulator whilst click->release selects the item under it, I’m unsure if this is the case.
But I do know the likely reason Blender doesn’t do that at the moment is because the design principles favour immediate responses and thus shies away from using release events to start operators (thus the latest change to tab and pie menu).

For me personally, I still kept the manipulator on for one reason: Even though I didn’t actively use it, it showed the current local or normal orientation, which is useful. I’m not sure how I’ll handle that in 2.8


(SaintHaven) #100

In other applications you can still click through and select components, either one by one or with drag select. They also allow you to resize the widget, generally with the + and - keys.

As for Blender, the image you showed you can just toggle the widget on or off, drag select, paint select, or zoom in if the said widget wont select you single select, though I have never had that problem personally. Additionally, I have installed: [Input] Custom Blender Setup | Silo/Maya- esque
Which shows that even with a widget in the way, holding down shift + clicking selects through the widget for the component. Its all possible as Blender stands now.

I doubt it will be a problem with 2.8, such as that the widgets will not be a problem.


(Antaioz) #101

You can resize the manipulator in blender too, though I don’t beleive there is a shortcut for it.

All of the options interrupt the workflow somewhat. A modifier key changes the standard for selection, and there is no spare modifier key to use in this instance. Using a different control to perform the same action when the context is only minorly changed is typically something to avoid.

2.8 doesn’t solve the issue, if the move tool is up, currently you still cannot click through, and the manipulator cannot be hidden by hotkey short of switching tool.

As I said before, the separated workflow is also about removing ambiguity. You know you can’t misclick, so you don’t need an extra keypress or modifier and you can be fairly inaccurate/fast with the mouse.

The point is, the separated workflow doesn’t encounter the issue at all. This is a benefit.

On a different topic, has anyone else noticed that the new spacebar tool menu doesn’t disappear when you move your mouse away? This seems odd.


(jpthrash) #102

Because this is one of the core functionalities that makes Blender stands out without trying to go against software interaction fundamentals.

Seems that for the 3d View, everything comes down to not being able to select under the cursor and accidentally moving things rather than selecting. There are other more sensitive solutions to those issues.

I have to say I’m not against RM Select as an option, I’m against it as a default behavior simply because the benefits don’t outweigh the cons as @SaintHaven said.

A good solution would be to expose the option in the Splash screen right under the interaction dropdown, just for discoverability sake.

I hope is a bug, currently, if you don’t select a tool, you have to click outside the menu for it to close and regain control of the viewport.


(Zsolt) #103

I believe most people here (myself included) advocating the switch to left-click select do not say that the other option should be removed. Just what the default action should be, as per the thread title “2.8 default keymap”.

I just don’t understand why such a simple change in the deafult settings is not done, when compared to the amount of frustration it causes to new users, and also users who constantly use Blender alongside other software. Advanced users can go to the settings and change it to right-click any time. But honestly, which new user would even think that such a change is possible under user preferences?


(Michael W) #104

Isn’t the problem deeper than that though? if I set blender to use left click select I still have all sorts of issues: I need to use righ click to scrub the timeline, right click to pan the node editor right click to paint or sculpt… the entire keymap would need to be altered all over the place to change from the split from action and selection being different mouse buttons to something that will work nicely on the same button. and that is in lots of places in the UI

You would most likely have to lose the ability to work without manipulators… there are compromises: you could have the same keymap as now but add tweak lmb as selection (either box, lasso or circle) and have right click as selecting a single item. in reality it goes very deep into the keymap. It would also mean that the new modal tools concept would probably need to force the use of teh maniplators rather than click and drag anywhere… that may not be so bad but is inconsistent with tools activated from key short cuts… I’m not opposed to changing to lmb select but it needs to be thought through and is more complicated than most think, especially given how arcane the keymap editor is.


(jpthrash) #105

Not really, Left mouse select affects only selection as the name implies. Sculpt and paint is still with left mouse, timeline scrubbing is with right mouse but that is somewhat passable now that we can alter key-frames within it (I don’t use timeline that often I have no opinion there). Node editor panning is with MMB (inconsistent with the 3d view in the first place)

LM Select doesn’t invert the mouse functionality, it just switches the selection button and some minor stuff.


(Michael W) #106

ok… maybe it doesnt invert action and selection everywhere now but it did… ymmv but left mouse select is still messy in 2.79 in my view and i still think it needs a well thought out solution rather than the current mess. Not impossible but not minor stuff in my view.


(tyrant monkey) #107

I have been using LMB select for over 10 years now but those manipulators have never gotten in my way, are people lying to me, you guys wouldn’t lie to me? Come on, I thought we were friends!

Do the manipulators get in my way when am not looking and then behave themselves when I am. This must explain all the snickering and suppressed laughter I keep hearing…


(Antaioz) #108

This is why regardless of the default the I’d like the main presets + left/right to be displayed on the splash screen instead of that entirely unnoticeable dropdown menu.


(CarlG) #109

But where is the View Navigation, which menu so I could bind it? Or am I missing some way to bind keys? Or is it just such that View Navigation is invoked behind the scenes if you’re not in an actual active camera view?



Maybe my previous problems in 2.79 of using the Walk Navigation came from the hidden View Navigation not being properly triggered, and camera was updated even if I was not in active camera view?


(0ptikz) #110

Gah. Every time I use a new version of blender, I find another bone headed change that irritates me.

The “A” key is no longer used to select / deselect all. Now It’s “A” and “Alt+A.” Why? Alt+A is not only an uncomfortable shortcut, it’s ludicrously inefficient compared to what we had before. Try repeatedly selecting and deselecting using this method. Not fun.

I thought the aim was to free up shortcuts? Then why are they adding a new shortcut for a feature that was already implemented perfectly?

If there is some logic behind this that I’m missing, someone let me know.


(jpthrash) #111

I totally agree with you, I even made Maya to toggle selection with “A” because it is extremely efficient. Another one is “CTRL+ALT+Spacebar” for creating custom transform orientations. Everything regarding gizmo and orientation was logical before, “CTRL+Spacebar” to show manipulator, “Alt+Spacebar” for orientation.


(zeauro) #112

I think they try to match deselect all behaviour with reset shortcuts (Alt G, Alt R, Alt S, etc…).
You are still free to change A to a toggle in your own keymap.
I do not perceive this change as a bad one.
It is a little bit inefficient when you want to deselect all to have to select all before.


(0ptikz) #113

I think they try to match deselect all behaviour with reset shortcuts (Alt G, Alt R, Alt S, etc…).

Ahh. That explains the logic, but it’s detrimental in practice. Unlike Alt G, Alt R and Alt S, which are used sparingly, you will need to deselect everything regularly, especially when clearing selections in editmode. I have to contort my fingers into a very uncomfortable position to do this. Maybe I just have big hands.

You are still free to change A to a toggle in your own keymap.

Yes, I know. Alternatively, I could use the 2.7 keymap. For the sanity of all involved, call we all operate under the assumption that everybody knows that Blender is customisable? If the stock answer is going to be “well, you can just change it”, then this thread is going to be limited in its usefulness.

I want to adapt to 2.8’s way of doing things - I really do - but there comes a point where they change so many shortcuts that it doesn’t feel like Blender anymore. I understand removing rarely used shortcuts, but the devs have also been messing with core functionality like X to delete and A for selection.


(zanzio) #114

Personally, I feel the A button toggle for select/deselect is brilliant. It is strictly binary. If you have anything selected you press A to deselect everything (you only need to deselect when you have something selected). If you have something selected and you want to select everything, you double tap A. This is as fast as GG for edge slide, and in my opinion easier to remember and use than button combinations.

The best part of it is that if it ever produces a result you don’t expect (lets say you don’t know you have a vert selected and you want to select everything) you can always press it again to get the result you want. You don’t have to think about why it didn’t do what you wanted; just tap again.