crazy times

  1. there are 3 main ethnic groups in Israel: the Jews (though their ethnicity is admittedly diverse), the Arab Israelis and the Palastinians.

Hey hey fligh… I don’t know if you know this but the arab israelis who you just catagorised in a seperate group of ethnicity are PALESTINIANS who didn’t flee their homes in 1948… they are palestinians who the zionists were not able to chase away… they are palestinians… and they comprise of mulsims and christians…

The main groups of ppl in israel today are catagorised by their religion…

1: jews
2: mulsims
3: Druzem
4: Christians (about 60.000)

  1. I’ll forgoe the the history lesson (if you don’t know the difference between Arab Israelis and Palastinians there’s no point).

Read the above…

md01

you are funny… but I’m not going to join this debate… not this time… to much anger and prejiduce… but if you have any specific question I’ll be happy to answer it, as long as you won’t prejudge me.

yeah Aner its a pretty heated topic.

it just goes to show how big the war in the west bank and gaza is. i mean most people who have strong views on the issue are across the other side of the world.

or have nothing to do with either isreal or palistine (including me)

Alltaken

you are funny… but I’m not going to join this debate… not this time… to much anger and prejiduce… but if you have any specific question I’ll be happy to answer it, as long as you won’t prejudge me.

You make it sound like you know all … asking others not to judge seems off…

I don’t know about the ancient history, but the 1900-present sounds accurate to me.

The current facts, though (IMO), are that Israel has agreed to and acted on propositions for peace with the Palestinian people in the recent past, giving great concessions. The Palestinians first agree, then cheat small, then start another round of terrorist strikes targeting civilians. They deliberately use women and children as human shields. Whatever valid claims or gripes they may pale in the face of these tactics. I suspect the poor Palestinian masses have becomes the tools of uncaring Arab tyrants in other countries who care nothing for their actual advancement but only about the destruction and humiliation of Israel.

Also, that’s a lot of UN resolutions. Clearly, you know and care a lot about this subject. Obviousy, I cannot refute the existense of those resolutions. I’ll look up the full text of the Security Council ones, just for some context before I respond. As for the others, I’m going to assume that they are basically statements passed by the General Assembly. Please correct me if I’m wrong about that.

My only response to the General Assembly stuff at this point is to question the validity of the UN as an organization that is truly committed to… well, what is it committed to? What is the UN for, supposedly, and what does it do, actually? In my opinion, such an organization should have as it’s sole commitment the establishment of the democratic rule of law amongst all people. In your opinion, what does/has the UN done that establishes it with legitimate authority in the world? I know that everyone agreed to it, etc., but have they done anything to deserve a role in world affairs, or have they squandered their initial mandate and become a nest of dictators and kleptocrats. I’m curious as to your evaluation of the UN.

well I do live less than 100km from the westbank border… I think I can presume I know a little bit more than anyone in this forum… though I’m probably not an objective viewer eventhough I have a very leftwinged views.

well I do live less than 100km from the westbank border… I think I can presume I know a little bit more than anyone in this forum… though I’m probably not an objective viewer eventhough I have a very leftwinged views.

Well… you don’t know more than everyone on this forum … believe me…but I don’t want to get into that… it’s also again a judgement to ‘assume’ that you know more than anyone on the forum… and 100km is a long way if I say so myself…

And I do agree that it’s hard in israel to be objective… … specially with the censurship that exists there… you should know what I mean…

Also I think I am going to retreat from this thread… because these subjects are endless and I am sick of them… I just wish that some that someday … maybe someday … wich I don’t feel is coming soon (but I still hope… and have hope since I still believe in both sides…some freaking-how…) that everyone here can stand each other a bit more…

o…k…

I don’t mean to be rude… my head just twisted… I think this subject is way too serious for elysiun… aargh! Hope you’re not offended orso…

nah… :smiley:

Aner, well even if you are not objective in this current situation.

as a debater, you keep respect for others, and debate in an objective way. which is the main issue. (well this coming from someone who really doesn’t care what one believes as long as they justify it with good reason)

Alltaken

Arab Israelis:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/arabs2.html

Please point me to a valid piece of evidence documenting the British government “bringing in Palestinians”.

I admit that the following link is politically biased but it does give a rational view from “the other side”, and most of what’s there pretty much is as I learned it 25, 30 yrs ago before internet. I really don’t have the time to sift thru thousands of links of politically (in)correct propaganda (encarta included) to find the relevant ones.

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/return.html

I’m not here to prove a point per se, but if there’s a point it’s this: the problem lies buried in a very murky history that all sides have done their level best to obfuscate (Britain especially) and turn to their own political advantage (I include the UN in this broad, sweeping generalization) and to say that something about that history is one way or the other is just not realistic. There are no facts (not even UN resolutions), that’s why there’s a problem.

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My belief is that both sides are, in their own way, in the wrong. Further, I believe that while the State of Israel was created by western powers, the Palestinian people have occupied the area, albeit without a soverign nation to call their own, for centuries. As of such, I believe that Israel is in the wrong to take that land, which by right of blood belongs to the people of Palestine. The people of Palestine insist on using uncooth, unfair, and bloody techniques in attempts to assert themselves, which is also quite wrong. I approve of their actions no more than I approve of those of Israel - however - as I have previously stated, the people of Palestine are woefully poor and have cause to be desparate. Israel has not been kind in their dealings with the Palestinian people, and they are clearly the ones who are in power. The Palestinian people are being oppressed, and as of such are lashing out with violence. The Israeli government is equally and more violent, with no similar set of excuses. It is my further belief that the Palestinian people deserve their own soverign nation, and that upon its creation, the conflict may not end, but will undoubtedly be quelled. For the Intifada to end, the Palestinian people must have resolve.

The preceding comments are my beliefs, which will not be swayed, and are not intended to sway the beliefs of others. I encourage all of you to research the topic extensively, both sides of it, and formulate your own opinion. I am not here to tell you what to think, and I applaud those of you who are as committed to your beliefs as I - I ask only that you respect that this is not a black and white - good v. evil - conflict. I do not think that the people of Palestine are inherently good, or that those of Israel are inherently evil, merely that Israel happens to be, entirely understandably, I might add, in the wrong.

As far as the UN resolutions, some are of the security council and thus binding, the others are merely statements made by the GA.

As far as my opinion of the UN, I believe that it is a woefully outdated organization, one which is an anachronism from immediately post WWII. The security council’s permanent members, composed of the victors of WWII, those being France, the U.K., the U.S., the U.S.S.R, whose seat is now held by the Russian Federation, and China, are no longer necessarily appropriate to be the core of the Security Council. Sure, there are another ten seats that rotate through membership, but the five permanent members of the security council hold the most power. A substantive decision requires the approval of all five permanent members, thus giving absolute veto power to the five - which I do not agree with for myriad reasons that I believe should be apparant. I believe that the stated ideals of the UN are laudable, but not often enough upheld. The UN has consistently failed to act in the times of greatest need, such as the horrific inaction taken during the Bosnia - Herzegovnia crisis, and the similar inaction during the crisis of 1994 in Rwanda, both of which yielded horrific results and shamed the UN to its very core. There are many options for UN reform, but I believe that most critical is a reworking of the Security Council.

And…I’m spent. This is my summer. I want to blend. I’m done with this topic. I spend my years writing hundreds of pages on these topics. Political Science with a focus in International Relations is my life, and I’m taking a break from my life. I’m going to make something neat and post it in the WIP forum, so that I can hear nice things!

Thanks for the discussion all. I applaud your resolve - don’t ever let anyone take it from you.

Same here. I’m gone, too. Good discussion this time, though. I learned a few things from anogarlr. Thanks for that.

i kinda find it funny that any topic that includes “isreal” as a name will always end in Isreal Vs Palistine debates.

even in this situation where it was Isreal Vs NZ LOL

but it was not unexpected.

Alltaken