I’m not sure but every time I try to go to the www .c4dcofe.com I end up in a Tokyoslot88 website, it’s an online gambling website I think …
Tried on multiple browsers on PC and phone and on different ISP, still going to the wrong website . So it can’t be just me ?
Thanx, how did that happen, though? Did they lose the domain, or are they becoming more of a general 3d forum ?
The blender thread there is very interesting, being pined and promoted by their moderators as the first thing you see makes me wonder if they are simply breaking ties with Maxon …
I have no idea. I simply googled C4D Cafe and the new URL is the first thing that popped out.
That Blender thread is indeed the first thing I noticed myself.
I think it has something to do with the previous name clashing with the copyrighted C4D name - or at least that the community owner, Igor, has opened the forum to other 3D apps.
Igor is teaching himself Houdini now.
Many Cinema4D users have become somewhat dismayed at the lack of real progress of the software, but more importantly the obvious move to subscription and the high financial upkeep are very much grumbled at.
The CPU only aging built-in renderer still hasn’t been replaced or modernized, and Maxon expects their users to invest in Redshift at additional cost instead. AMD ProRender was touted to become a GPU renderer replacement, but after a few years the developers gave up on that. It is no longer part of the latest version.
For most 3d hobbyists and semi-professionals Cinema4D is a costly endeavour to keep up. I can speak from experience: I was a huge fan of C4D, but at some point the ever-increasing costs to remain a C4D user were becoming untenable. I really did not want to leave C4D, but I was forced out by the (in my view) unreasonably high costs.
Still use an older version for some things, and I do have access to C4D via my work, however.
I thought as much, I just didn’t want to speculate without any information.
Hopefully at some point, they will wake up and lower their costs. It would be a pity if they ended like lightwave. All those people losing their jobs and the competition in the 3d market diminishing further is not good for anyone.
LightWave’s situation was quite different, though: pretty much all down to mismanagement of the software. It was and still is quite affordable.
Both companies have things in common in my opinion: both lost their mojo. Cinema4D used to be incredibly innovative. LightWave as well a long time ago.
I agree with you that the (seeming) loss of LightWave is very unfortunate for many people. But the signs were on the wall for a very long time, despite nay-saying from Newtek.
I hope Maxon will see sense in supporting hobbyists and smaller freelancers, because as far as I can tell they are losing users. Perhaps not so many at this point, but something needs to change in their business approach, in my opinion.
But for now larger corporate entities behind Maxon seem to be milking the cow.
Hard to imagine that can happen. The price is not steep for people who use it for commercial work.
$983.00 a year for C4D + Redshift it’s really affordable.
First year of X-Particles can be pricey at $861.40, though the maintenance at around $262 is quite cheap.
As for the improvements, I haven’t heard many complaints from other motion graphic designers. There’s all that is generally needed: soft body, cloth, hair, MoGraph, fields, volume, and so on.
C4D is quite reliable at this point, and a solid, established 3D app of choice for the motion graphics industry.
That said, I’m not a big fan of the subscription either, in fact, I’m still on R21. But I can imagine switching to the subscription if there are good reasons to do so.
@phoe-nix-art Yes, for motion graphics it is still the to-go 3d app - no question. It is their saving grace niche.
For the average 3d hobbyist and occasional 3d freelancer the costs are prohibitive, though. 4 years of Cinema4D would mean $CAN 5600 for me, which is untenable, even if I do the odd freelance commercial 3d job. And at the end of those 4 years, I am left with no software to open my old files.
The perpetual license is a whopping $CAN 4689, but would also need to be upgraded to stay current, and the site no longer even provides an option to do so - only by contacting Maxon directly… I feel it is quite apparent the perpetual version is going the way of the Dodo rather sooner than later.
And that perpetual version doesn’t even include Redshift! Which is rental only.
Which means I’d have to invest in another GPU renderer at additional cost.
Nonetheless, C4D is a fine DCC. If you can afford it and don’t mind the rent. I am lucky I can access it via work, because I often have to convert files back and forth.
Sad situation. Maxon Must lower prices and make “indy” version like Maya and Houdini have ( about $200 per year ) if they want to survive. C4D is still king in some niche areas, but other software lower gap, not only Blender.
Anyway C4D have two nice tools which I love to use, polygon pen and slide tool.
PolyQuilt is decent replacement for polygon pen… but do any of you know for Blender alternative for slide tool? I mean One tool which can slide, weld, and extrude? Maybe some addon have such functionality…
When you add in the reality that commercial users will have subscriptions to deal with for nearly every step of the pipeline (from modeling to post production to video editing to texture authoring to marketing material), the costs will quickly start to add up. Even worse, you will likely have to subscribe to a software solution to keep track of all of the subscriptions.
I know there is C4D’s ‘affordable’ tier which is the Prime edition, but to not have features like global illumination gives a very poor impression when you realize what FOSS can offer now (which I don’t think even perks like commercial support can overcome).
Post production and video editing can be easily and cheaply obtained by using Resolve/Fusion and as long as Adobe sells stand-alone licenses for Painter, texturing remains relatively affordable.
What cuts deep into the wallet are the tons of plugins for C4d itself that are needed if you want to use it for anything else but mograph. Renderers, VFX tools, quality of life tools etc.
In that regard C4d is very expensive even when compared to Autodesk since the latter provides more in their vanilla versions.
I have made this point before, I find it laughable that Maxon asks for this much money when you compare the actual ability of C4d and compare it with Maya or Max and of course Blender.
I think Maxon abuses its user-base and their feelings of familiarity/convenience as wells as anxiety/hesitation to learn alternatives.
I have the impression we’re going in circle. C4D is not expensive if someone works in the motion graphic industry but of course, it becomes pricey for the hobbyist.
As for the pipeline, it’s uncommon that for a motion graphic piece, one has to take care of every step of the pipeline on his/her own. In fact, I’ve never seen someone doing that, unless is a personal project, which is not what I’m talking about.
That said, $1,245 for C4D, Redshift, and X-particles is totally manageable considering you get all the motion graphics tools needed, a fast render engine, and a suite of particles tools.
Yes, you need to add the Creative Cloud which is $636 for the whole suite for a total of $1881, but still manageable. Bear in mind though, that some C4D people do just that, only C4D, and if AE or PS are needed, again, we’re not talking about people working solo but for companies that already provide all the tools and licenses needed. Thus, one can easily suspend the subscription(s) and use what the studio already offers (even remotely).
Lastly, it is not a matter of what other 3d apps can do, it really boils down to have the right tools to get the job done as fast as possible.
Not anymore… all those separate editions were discontinued… 
Motion Graphic… yap, this is very lucrative niche… but key word is niche. Although C4D is best for this purpose, other software is more and more used for MG. Many years ago one Max user show me many MG stuff which are made in Max. I was shocked, also many studios use Maya for MG, and I talk about time when Houdini are not so popular. Maxon throw all his eggs in one basket, as far I know, body paint still not have symmetry, for example.
Competition is high, Maxon bleed customers every day. One more thing. C4D these days are different software. Couple months ago I play with R23. I struggle to find stuff ( I skip R20-23, so there are cumulative difference ), dude which I teach C4D laugh. He also say that C4D is… unstable, at least compared to R19 and before.
So, I don’t think that C4D will disappear soon, but user base will be smaller and smaller, which mean that Maxon probably will rise prices 
Which will lead to further user exodus. C4D is good software for one man army, and to be honest no one software can compare with C4D speed and user friendliness. In C4D I just work… in Blender this is constant struggle.
Maxon management has their head so far up their butt they don’t know that having an indy version would make them more money now and later. This gives me little faith that C4D will ever come back. If management can’t make a good decision on something so simple as having an indy version they definitely can’t make C4D a good program.
It is OK though as Blender will very soon be better than C4D in motion graphics with Blender’s Geometry Nodes becoming Everything Nodes. The only thing C4D has over Blender will be xparticles. If xparticles came to Blender there would be absolutely no reason to stay with C4D.
The slide tool can auto weld. In Blender the auto weld is a separate so it can work with every single tool. It’s called Auto Merge Vertices and has it’s own button to enable disable on the top right. It is like the snapping which kind of works with everything by turning it on or off. It kind of is the Blender matto where they want everything to work with everything else. There is another built in plugin called Loop Tools which is really amazing. Probably has a lot of stuff you are missing. Blender has every poly editing tool C4D has built in, or through a plugin, but better.
Edit: If you turn on Split Edges & Faces with snapping to edges and verts on you can extrude a single vertex to a edge or vertex and it will automatically cut the geometry.
If you are talking about Motion Graphics than you have a point. If you mean in general than I strongly disagree. Working in C4d felt like driving with the handbrake pulled. User-friendliness means nothing if they force me to click on everything (I prefer shortcuts).
Yes its easier, but its also makes you weak and complacent.
I am 300% faster with Blender. Absolutely no software compares with Blender when it comes to raw speed, unless it’s inability to do the job without workarounds slows it down.
Yes, I prophetize that people/teams using Blender and Houdini together will bring the downfall of C4d in the long run.
There is nothing Maxon can do against them if this tag-team starts to go seriously after their jobmarket.
Blender pushes from below, Houdini from the top, there is not enough room left for C4d in its niche, especially since both B and H can do much, much more than just Motion Graphics.
Not only these 2, Maya and Max aren’t exactly weak when it comes to Motion graphics.
A single strong push from Autodesk with their Bitfrost and Maxon might get not only squished from 2 sides, but literally crushed from all sides.
Not only will the software be crushed, its users too. They don’t have a chance to adapt, since C4d is a walled garden and many of them are used to hand-holding and the easy way of doings things.
By the time they realize they have to reorient themself, they are way behind the competition.
Can’t say I have much empathy.
It might get as ugly as with Lightwave.
Slide tool improvements is an old dream of mine too… 
Hmm, quite the opposite really…
Blender has some nice and unique tools and features, but when it comes to the basic modeling tools, they are still kind of incomplete and missing some basic key features… so not better at all, yet… IMHO…
Well, this is very personal stuff. I mostly work on modeling, look dew, fixing someone $#1T, and such things. I think that this is matter how someone use software. I write long message, but delete it, after all this is not place and time for such comparison. I talk with C4D and Max users couple times about this topic. Just like Max in Blender is not possible to make some changes. And / or people don’t want to make change in his workflow.
Remember, in daily modeling work you use just few tools 99% of time, and there C4D shine, even without plugins, out of box, cinema is designed to be fast.
btw. couple years ago I win bet with one very, very advanced Max user. He customize his Max to max 
and have shortcuts for everything. he, he he lose and use zillion excuses… like I use something illegal 
In his defense I must say that you can’t do same in Max… just like in Blender.
I think that you say what I want to say in one sentence.
Geometry nodes are word of day… But people forget that Maxon work on similar stuff for years. I don’t care about this too much, Motion Graphic is not my bread and butter. But don’t underestimate Maxon. His version have all power of mograph, XP, Xpresso behind. Yap Houdini can do ( almost everything ), but what is cost? Most of stuff you can recreate in C4D in fraction of time and effort. Blender like Blender don’t care to be user friendly, more to be playground for nerds. Most Motion Graphic people are not willing to learn programming or to waste enormous time and effort to get into Blender, stalking social media to get basic infos about software and struggle with buggy, unstable, unpolished features… Y’know, this are regular people, with private life, tight deadlines, and other interests in his private time. During years I do bunch of small jobs for some of them. Well, most of them don’t know how to model even simple cube but they know other stuff much better than me. So if they don’t bother to learn simple modeling stuff, instead they find some cheap dude like me, why they will bother with Blender?
Same is for Houdini, they pay someone to make stuff in Houdini and via bridge import them in C4D, with exposed controls.
XParticles are very popular, and for sure there will be bunch of Blender users which will buy it. But first, I don’t think that developer are willing to agree on FOS. Also this developer is… money lover , so don’t expect that this will be cheap. On the end, XP are in his core deeply dependent of C4D functions, this mean that he must write XP for Blender almost from scratch… well, do you believe in Santa…
I strongly disagree. I have worked in C4d for years, I never found it to be particularly fast. Compared to max and maya it fares well, but only when compared with “normal” users. If you see some real pro’s working with both you might be surprised. Maya for example has the repuation to be lame, but people using the marking menu’s to its fullest potential can get really fast, like so fast you don’t even see what they are doing in the marking menu’s because you can use it blindly, you don’t have to wait for the menu to pop up. Same is true for Blender and its pie menu’s, you can just flick your wrist and its done before the pie menu becomes fully visible.
That’s how I work in Blender I have tons of custom pie menus and I just use them blindly. Button smash, wrist flick in the right direction - its done in a fracture of a second.
Since Blender doesn’t use the left click and drag method its also a fracture of a second faster than any other tool which adds up over the day.
The only tool that can keep up with Blender in terms of modelling speed is a heavily customized Modo.
Exactly, and that’s what will cost them their job if they don’t watch out. Hungry artists who are not yet part of the industry will be able to do the same stuff with Blender for half the price because they are faster and more flexible. User-friendliness is irrelevant, what counts is raw productivity.
They don’t until this mindset falls on their feet.
Blender will become more able and doing Mograph will become more easy. And on top of that Blender artists are often generalists in their approach, they will be able to do more than just one thing (mograph) slowly eroding the job-market by making better offers (in price and ability).
Sure, but there will come a time where THEY as the middle man are no longer needed. They become redundant.
Houdini cuts in this market segment because it too becomes easier to handle, so more people learn it, - prices go down.
Also customers see that high end stuff is becoming easier and more affordable so they’ll push the limit and might upgrade their artistic vision to be more complex.
XP is one of the strongest arguments for C4d right now (btw i think it will NEVER come to Blender, that’s just fantasy) but this too will pass. If the BF implements a new particle system from the ground up and if this will be performant enough, it will be a strong competitor for C4d XP.
You seem to forget that Geometry nodes enables addon/plugin makers to use its full potential, so If Geometry nodes becomes more complete, addons that make the life easier will pop up. There will be no need to dive deep into nodes if they act as a bridge.
So even here Blender will cut into their market, and if customers want more complex particle systems and simulations there is always Houdini.
Like I said, C4d will be crushed from the easy and cheap angle (Blender) and from the high end top level (Houdini).
It already has begun. Lots of famous Mograph artist took the leap of faith and they use either Houdini or Blender now (often both).
Sure it will take some more time until this becomes a strong movement (years) and at first agencies and freelancers will ignore it and stick to what they know and what is working for them, but they will get stronger and stronger competition up until the moment the dam breaks.
C4d has no other speciality. Blender doesn’t need one. Houdini is already strong and becomes stronger in everything. Maya is still the animation queen and Max is the king of the production industries.
Modo is already slowly dying and Lightwave is already rotting. C4d’s life hangs on one shiny silver thread.
Greed will be its downfall, one way or another if they go along with their current trajectory.
There is a way for them to save themself, investing a HUGE amount of money into C4d to make it more able on all fronts while cutting the price.
But they are too arrogant and complacent for that road.