Laptops and rendering

Firstoff, you are quite ambitious and did some nice stuff for not doing it long.
Got to say that prior else you just read 5 lines, feel deeply personal offended and attacked and I get an impolite reply to my post thats in capital letters with multiple punctuation marks :stuck_out_tongue:

Awesome! Why are you constanly bugging us then with questions and dont write a book explaining us how everything works? :smiley: Could earn you some serious money.

So you already know:
If it is a linear or a proportional impact the Ambient Occlusion has on the render times?
What is the difference between Constant and Adaptive QMC?
Whats QMC anyways.
How do softshadows work and how do they impact render time?
What the advantages and disadvantages of raytraced shadows vs. buffered shadows are.
You know how all the settings in raytraced transparency and mirror effect rendertime.
You are aware why you use OSA and you know how to circumvent it.
Who this nasty Octree is and why the hell you got to fill it.

There are books filled with knowledge about lighting, scenes setups, camera setups and CG rendering, and you know all that already while most of us are still reading and learning?

Obviously not. A scene either renders, or it does not, if it does not render correctly it is your fault, as it is only a bunch of physical (well depends on the renderer) calculations based on the things you set up.

So you understand how everything works, but don´t know the specs of your current machine? From the looks of your knowledge of computers you better don´t select one yourself for your tasks ahead.

Well, I don´t. Call me cruel, but I am honest at least.
I can see you got some talent for 3D CG in your renders, but they are far from “know what you´r doing” You state you know how everything works, in the same time you tell us you have only been doing this for a few months, and in the same time you tell us you do the most awesome stuff, and at the same time you post not so awesome stuff, you complain you got no one to teach at the sime time you tell us you couldn´t stand your drumteacher to teach you either.
You contradict yourself in every second post and seem to have no idea what you want here or from us - well obviously you just want to hear its all fine you do. All we do here is burden ourself with your adolescense, while many of us have grown up kids here and wished never to have to have anything to do with adolescent kids anymore =)

No need to show off. Quantity is not quality.
I asked you to post one of your blends that is not working or taking forever to render to have a look at it. But it seems you don´t want any help. Your loss.

You are not experienced enough to say you are experienced enough =) No one is.
The trick is to take the portions from someone else that knows something better, or for that matter knows it at all, and stitch it together to either build your own conclusions on it, or form a solid knowledge base.
And it seems you don´t want to know how to improve as you can´t admit you lack experience. In order to learn something new you have to have room for something new.

You constantly feel attacked and tend to insult people without the patience of some people here you already would have be told to come back in a year or two when your general attitude is different - well to be blunt when you´r puberty is over.

Ok, please just leave me alone? Advice is one thing, but picking apart everything i say and then using it against me is just rude. Seriously?! I just wanted help cutting down on my render times, and it’s evolved into an argument!! I don’t care what you think of me or what I say, just give me some advice on rendering! I know full well what I’m doing, but even the creators of belnder probably have problems. The Durian project members surly had trouble and had to ask “someone” for help.

I know quite alot about computers, and my brother works on them, an told me that the computer I want is really good. Don’t insult my intelligence by telling me I know nothing about what I’m doing. I read every single line of what you write, and I still say you are rude. You may not mean to be but you are.

I overreacted to Richard’s comments and I appologized and now welcome his advice. You however cannot ever find anything good in what I do. Everything I do is not wrong. Yes many things I’ve made are bad, but there are some good parts to my work, not all of it is simply crap.

And no, it’s your loss. You are annoying to say the least, and unless you can show me something interesting or productive then get the hell of my thread. I dont need some overly confident idiot bugging me and offering no help at all. Please, if you cannot act in a civilized manner then leave!!! I don’t have time for your kind of advice. What you seem to call “advice” I like to call sarcasm and ignorance. I’m aware that I’m not experianced, Im not the best, and I dont claim either.

If you have something pertaining to what I’ve asked, then post it, but if it is more of your condesending rude garbage then keep it to yourself.

This is directed towards Arexma, and noone else. I do not wish to offend anyone, only to get some help and end this rediculous fighting.

I had an idea. I’d like arexma to give me a request of something to make, and I’ll see if I can. I’d then like arexma to evaluate what I’ve made and we’ll see how i do.

If I do bad, then you have every right to say so. However if I do good, then we end this idiotic argument.

@richard

Cool picture, what’s the project about? Do you plan on adding some compositing like depth of field or something?

removed______________

Thankyou. I think it will either give proof that i am capable, or show me that I need alot of work. I hope arexma takes this challenge.

First, you don’t have to proof anything, but feel free to go along if you have fun with it …

Second, I got a laptop and a fairly old desktop.
The laptop is a dual core with (only) 1 gig RAM.with ubuntu-linux.
The desktop is a single core with 3 gig with win xp.

I usually work on the desktop because it’s more comfortable (dual display, etc…). I think that for standard modelling the RAM seems to be the most important part. However, the laptop is faster, when it comes to rendering - so i often do that on it.

Point being: i don’t think your laptop has more than 2 gig - it sounds more like 1. (Right click on “My computer” - Properties - check it out, that would help clear things, i suppose). And Vista might not be a good idea with that. (I assume you turned off aero and all that stuff).
Before Ubuntu i had Win7 (Test Version) on it, and that had about the same speed - probably would have kept it, if i didn’t have to pay :stuck_out_tongue:

So maybe you should give that a try, or maybe search the net for ways to tweak your vista - since you said your laptop is overall slow.
If you want to stay with windows, maybe check out if you can get a student/educational version of win7 - should be affordable and afaik is much faster than vista.

Third, if you still want a new PC (who doesn’t) you could try another approach. Since the one you first proposed seems to be overpriced, maybe the “right” way isn’t to look for a better machine for the same price, but rather look for an alike one, that’s cheaper?

You could ask your mom, how much money it may cost and look for the best package then - or come up with a cheaper proposal beforehand (but that’s tricky, because she might think, you’ll go even cheaper if she says no again.)

cheers.

Sorry, but you made me chuckle.

What could some rude, annoying, overly confident idiot ask of you. (you got the manors I obviously lack I see.)
I could ask tons of things of you, you would fail. Photorealism, Organic Human Modelling, ArchViz but what would be the point? I am not here to see you failing, thats why I initially posted in this thread, as I said I see your dedication and a certain talent.

And I really don´t need the courtesey like you granted Richard to listen to his advice after instulting one of the most helpful and experienced guys here. I really admire his patience, I guess he raised children and has a thick skin.

I don´t even know what arguement you want to end…
Hmm. so I am overly confident ha?
If i know it all? Hell no, CG develops so fast its hard to keep pace, but there are tons of things I and others here know better than you, we did things wrong already you don´t even considered yet to blow =)
And hell I even find most of my work ugly and far from perfect, although I enjoy the creationprocess, but deadlines often leave me no choise and as long as it earns me my rent.

I also don´t see why you constanly ignore our offer to look at one of your blends that is supposed to render forever or not render at all. You ignore the offer to get a free second and third opinion if its something with the blend or your computer indeed by people doing this stuff for decades.

Well, lets dig in the dirt for your “challenge” if you want one:
http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?t=187905

I told you what´s off with your gun and asked why you don´t use your images as reference.
Your first reply was o.k.
And hell once a second person agreed with me and your skills got in the crossfire, you start attacking peeps personally again. You really got a problem with critics don´t you?

However,you even say you got those zappers at home. Then start by using reference images to make a proportional correct model, even pictures with your cellphone or webcam suffice for that.

But start the gun over. First advice, make the seperate parts of the gun seperate meshes too it will look way more realistic and saves you the worries lateron to worry about sharp edges and messy cuts.
Also try the holes with the screws in them. Round holes in meshes is one of the top questions in the support section =)
Then go on and make a nice scene setup, place the gun somewhere, do a nice lighting setup and start working on the materials.

So, consider your next reply, I can either take my time to help you along with this one with my experience, which I feel I owe you, but if you keep your attitude up to instult everyone criticising you in any way, I am out of here, because then it is really my loss. A loss of my time and then just go ahead, buy a computer, but if the overall situation is not inproving dont complain.

But let me remind you to be honest to yourself, you post things like:

“it’s an hp laptop… im not sure much else… i have no idea how much ram i have, and I dont even now what kind of laptop it is… I have a 4.8 on graphics in the windows index experience…”
“And everything is a chipset or whatever so i cant replace the hardware…”
“I think I only have like less than 4 gb of memory.”
“I know quite alot about computers”

And those are in one context, you blame a machine you don’t seem to really know and if one suggests it is not the machine it might be your skills setting up renders you get insultive.

Hey, Richard has every right to be mad at me, hell he can even hate me!! I was wrong to insult and offend him, and I already apologized. As for you believing I’d fail everything you told me to make, you’re dead wrong. I don’t know what Archviz is however, and I’d appreciate it if you’d explain it?

I’m not ignoring your offer to look at my files, its just that I fixed alot of them myself. I proved to myself that I can do things. As for the zapper light gun, I though I fixed it? I went back, made the handle thicker, resized the trigger, and shortened the barrel, just like you said. I plan on putting the holes in it, is it not located in works in progress. Pay more attention to the word “progress” it means, not finished but getting there basically.

And sometimes, if I write in all caps, it an accident. the caps key is located very close to the a key and I sometimes hit it without realizing it.

If you’re so willing to help, then take a look at this thread, and help me fix my particle system!!!
http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?t=187701

No matter what I do, the particles always float down, and if I turn the gravity field weight down, then they just float randomly.

http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?t=187734
what do you think of this? if you have so many opinions, why not share them?

I do not want to argue with anyone. I just want opinions of my work and my projects, and if a problem is seen then I want advice or a solution! And how come you’ve said nothing about compositing? I figured my crappy compositing jobs would be the first thing you went after. If anything, it’s what I think I do the worst.

Also, below are some scenes that I believe I did pretty good on. I’d completly forgotten about them. The iTF one is a redo of my profile picture, the rose is a redo of a picture I’m sure I posted a link to, and the ATST model I stripped from an old game and set up in blender. All of these were rendered in lux.

Also? may i ask why you keep pointing out what I don’t know, instead of telling me what those things are? Focus less on what I say, and more on what I do. I’m at a point, where I’m capable of understanding and learning everything you say. Maybe I don’t know how to do these things, but I can learn. I’m a very intelligent person, perhaps a bit… odd to say the least, but intelligent none the less. So if you realize I don’t know something, instead of pointing out that I dont, tell me how to do it!!

I really wish we could all just focus on stuff that we all need to learn, or that we already know, and could just stop arguing!!! I willing to accept any help, but just stop quoting everything I say!!!

Attachments




AHHHHHH!!! WHY!!!

Blender 2.5 crashed when I tryed to render!!! I was creating a scene with only two objects!! these two objects were very very simple, and the particle system I was using was insanly simple! What’s even worse, I didn’t have a chance to save all my work!! I was working on an arcing electricity system, and it was working great!! now i have to redo everything!!!

Why does blender 2.5 crash so much? It constantly does this to me!!

Well, Blender 2.5 is only in alpha. Means it is not even finished yet without all functionality. There are many reasons though for a crash. Hell, I don’t even know what causes it 99.99 percent of the time.

And arexma, I looked at your list of knowledge points and realized I’ve got some boning up to do! Embarasssingly there were a few questions I could not answer directly. Not about the obvious stuff, like shadows and so on. But some of the other more “technical” stuff. Maybe it is about transfering knowledge from LightWave over to Blender speak. I’ll have to take a look and see. :slight_smile:

And also, arexma, it is mostly I think I understand kids. I remember clearly what it was like. And in general I can be an ass as well, but I am glad that people here are patient with my bluntness, and when they get angry I am not surprised because sometimes I go right for the throat, not in an attacking manor but just being blunt. So I suppose I can return the favor and be patient.

Emotions always seem to run high when you strip back the social niceties and get down to brass tax. But when that dust settles you have the cards clearly on the table, nobody BSing anyone. That’s how I like it. If a person can survive that, get over their own baggage and back to what is important which is the art itself,then it is time to put all that behind. Once that is over I don’t care what the person said to me. Let’s just talk about art alright? One can hope that this would never happen and we could just talk about art in a forthright manor, but that is rarely how it works out.

Gnome - Thanks for the compliment. I have no plan add any DOF to this project. I am going for more of a graphic artistic it look rather than the look of something filmed though a lens. Keep in mind that DOF is a flaw we have learned to live with and in cinematography use to our advantage to put emphasis on different things in the frame. It should be done intentionally, not just to be “realistic”. But in this case I want to try an convey a more or less Graphic Novel look if anything. And the image is not there yet. Just stages I am going through to try and get the look I want. Still in progress. But I don’t see DOF as being a part of it.

And listen to arexma. He has great ideas to help you. Never mind about the rudeness you think he has. Get over it. He’d much rather you get down to brass tax and he just wants to help. The sooner you do that the better it will be for you and all.

Woopdidoo. Brand new day, sunshine, weekend within grasp, I am in a glorious mood. =)

Let´s go.

AchViz = Architectural Visualization. It requires a high render capacity, architectural knowledge, or at least a floorplan, lots of experience with materials and light if it whould look photorealistic.

Then, you shouldn´t have instulted anyone in the first place, but thats my opinion.
As well as for the caps, proofreading is a blessing. I usually proofread my text, not that it would help =) but I guess its a habit as english´s not my native language.

Your particle system. It´s like fixing a computer without being there, the nightmare of everyone having a friend call with the words “I got a problem with my computer…”.
Post up the blend in your thread and I can look at it, although in the one with the hectic cam, I unfortunately don´t really see what the problem is either.
One suggestion, look at camera shake scripts, there are plenty around and it looks cool when the cam shakes on ignition. But basically without .blend I can barely help you there.

Fact is, I barely use 2.5 atm, just playing with it, and encountering any problems might as well be due to bugs. If you find something cheesy, look up here : https://projects.blender.org/ to see if you have ran into an reported bug.
I work with Blender, I can´t rely on an alpha/beta, I need a stable working environment so I am still with 2.49b.

Ray the robot, I basically like, but this one, as many of your other projects, have the same problem, you drop it at some point and restart them or completely change them…
You need to get a workflow going. As for Ray, start with concept arts.
Draw different heads, different bodys and other parts and then make one final concept and model him.
I don´t think Ray would look cool with the current head posted in that thread.

Get a clear line in your projects, and don´t start everything at once, nothing will get finished and all your threads will ebb away. Focus on one thing at a time, you´r stepping into too many areas, that are even seperate jobs in the industry.
I know its exciting and you want to rebuild the world in a day. Most of us have been there =)
But it will do you no good.
Actually your system is a bless, you should learn to circumvent the limited resources, by tweaking rendersettings, cheat with reflections and stuff. Often enough you need it.
If you got to render a 5 min short, which are 9000frames in 1080p.
If you save 2 minutes on each one for cheating reflections for instance, you save 12,5 days rendertime if you´d render on one machine. Save another two minutes by using appr. AO instead of ray. AO, another 12,5 days and you already saved 25 days rendertime on one machine. If you got to pay for a renderfarm it sums up. If you run your own farm, you still can save a day or two.

Brings me to the next point, for your renderings, you might want to get rid of raytraced ambient occlusion, that is what is causing the grain in your renders, and your machine isn´t meant to render 6+ iterations to get rid if the most noise. Switch to approximated AO, even 1 pass gives nice results and its 100 times faster than raytraced.

Next, post up one of your blends already and tell whats wrong with the rendering or if it is one that is not rendering. Looking at your rendersettings would help you alot.
Don´t get me wrong, the new computer would most likely enhance the overall performance, but if you can still use this one, you can use the money to get, i don´t know, an artpad, some books or training dvd´s. You can also check your machines performance yourself. go there:
http://www.eofw.org/bench/
render the benchmark scene and compare your rendertime with the ones posted there, then you see how your machine performs and you can determine if your rendersettings are off, or if it is indeed a problem with your machine.
And reading in your other threads that rendering a cube takes forever already, my guess, given by your approximated computerspecs, is simply, that you mess up your rendersettings.

For your work with particles, particles and all kinds of physics simulations require a vast amount of system memory, I doubt you have beyond 4GiB and i guess you run 32b blender. If you run complex particle systems under 32bit or try to render them blender will crash, out of memory.
If you use too many composting nodes in 32bit blender it will crash, out of memory.
For your latest crash :smiley: ctrl+w is your friend.
I save everytime before I testrender, run a viewport animation, basically on everything, cant afford to loose any work.

To simply testrender your scenes to get visual feedback, turn of raytracing in the render tab.
To render with your current settings and get feedback on some lighting or material, use the border render (shift+b in camera view)

For particle systems, on your machine, don´t display 100% of the particles as it is set by default.

There are a gazillion things to do and not to do and its hard to say what you can do and what not and what you do wrong and what not. Explaining all would equal writing a book, and there are people here that are more fit for that task.

I can just look at your files and tell you whats wrong, If you got specific questions I might be able to answer them.

As for my rudeness, Richard got it pretty much, many got probs with it in real life too, but its a problem of society not mine.
I am blunt, honest and straight forward. Usually I got no time to talk cherries on the cake and don´t even care to do so. =)
I just giftwrap stuff if it could really hurt somone, but most of my friends know what they get when they ask me, and actually apreciate to get straightforward feedback. Even if it hurts. I also don´t cheer if someone bashes my work.

Happens in the job often enough. You work your brain out for days, think thats awesome stuff, but lost all the distance to the project, go to the next meeting and the mediadirector says…
“naaah… thats too green, not mystic enough, there the animation is too slow”
first thought “wtf… you sob… murmur”.
Then you redo it, get back to the next meeting…
“naaah, thats too red, too mystic, and the animation is too fast now”
pullmyhairs
The next time you bring it in, all seems perfect, your pride broken into pices but you took it like a man.
Then you dig out the first version and compare it to the final one and think…
WTF was i thinking… thats utter crap i produced there… good I got straight forward input.
And you already have been there yourself… look at your Zappergun thread =) you noticed yourself how awesome your dug out renders where =) And that is just because you evolved your skills, you haven´t got any blunt C&C on it.

I am sure I forgot something I wanted to say, but this post´s too long already.
If you read until here without falling asleep, thanks for reading =)

And now I go back to my demon… Human topology - time to get project Natsuki forward, the only personal project I got at the moment and which i barely got time for. :confused:

Ok… I’m not sure how to respond to all that… I get the whole blunt straight forwardness, so ok yeah… I really do have too many projects, but I’ll start testing something for one of my major projects, Either Light it Up or the lantern, but then I think I could do more with the test and get carried away.

You said that 32 bit blender crashes for those stated reasons, but I tried using 64 bit on my brother’s computer, and it worked weird. The menus took about a minute to go away once the desired command was selected.

@richard
Ok, I get it, I always think of everything as realistic. I never thought of the fact that not everything has to be photorealistic… ha! Maybe I do try to make it too real. Supposably the most overused compositting component is lens distortion and chromatic abberation, but I use that right!! I use dof way too much, basically in everything I do. Is there a thread on the project that I could follow? It looks interesting.

photoealistic? that is only one style.

all my students want photoreal because it looks cool.

but once you start understanding that a style has a function
you will see photorealism only as one option besides many other.

for communicative reason photorealism can even be not a good choice.

at my last conference you saw many hypershot hdri based renderings.
to my surprise not many noticed the flaws in them but because it
was all glossy people thought bling bling.

What is hypershot hdri? And I don’t guess I follow a specific style… I just try and go for whatever fits the scene. I try not to go for one specific style, I usually just try to get what I think looks good

Hypershot is rendering for dummys.

you can only use and HDRI image to light you scene and thats it.
it has a very fast coarse preview mode but rendering itself is slow
which amuses me often because people think the preview mode
is what hypershot is and when they notice how slow it is with real
rendering they are bumped…

to make stuff look good is a valid reason - I was more talking about
photorealism in general.

check here:
http://sites.google.com/a/ckbrd.de/digital-rendering/Render-Styles

Couple of big sweeping ideas here:

You can do anything even with very modest hardware. For whatever reason, I’ve never had the dream system I always wanted. I think it was a good thing that I did not.

Above all else: forget the notion of “push the Big Red Render Button, wait ‘X’ hours, and admire.”

Images are constructed in compositing, not in the render. (Likewise, photographs are made in the darkroom, not in the camera.) Study “node-based everything.” Materials. Textures. Compositing. Read every scrap of documentation; watch every tutorial you can find. And, don’t just limit yourself to Blender as you’re doing it.

Plan your work-flows before you begin. You want to always be making progress forward. You should be looking more for something that you can adjust to be “perfect,” not something that magically pops out of the renderer like Venus :eek: from her shell on the beach.

If you look closely at … anything … then you’ll find that the best way to describe what you see is with “layers of…” effects. Therefore, that’s how you make them.

Consider “multi-track recording” in a sound studio. Everything is recorded onto a separate, clean track. Once everything has been captured (rendered…), the “mixdown” occurs, then “mastering.” There might easily be sixty or eighty tracks in a single mix. Most of the steps that take place do not draw attention to themselves unless they are missing.

I guess he got an ATI graphics card? Also occurs on some nvidia cards, its an openGL issue IIRC.

I find lens distortion is an stylistic element to give something a vinatage look. It actually is something you try to avoid in cinematography. Heavy radial lens distortion is something that points to a cheap optical system. Although in certain applications its unavoidable and lateron gets rectified by folding algorithms, especially in computer vision.

… ok I have no idea what you just said? could you put it in less technical terms? What in the world does some of that mean? I’d probably understand it, but I dont understand some of the terms you use…

Sorry, actually I can´t simplify it, well I could try to, but I would have to explain to much stuff you don´t need to bother about, at least not at your current point in life. And not unless you want to have anything to do with cumputer vision you most likely never will.

You can read up on it in the free book i posted:
http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?t=187900
Chapter 2.1.6 Lens Distortion

Suffise to say, I find lens distortion something you can use as a stylistic element but its nothing you have to use. If you need this imperfection to make a, lets say Milkshake Bar scene from the 60’s more believable its surely cool.
Its like lensflare. In real life cinematography everything is done to prevent mirroring light within the optical system and in CG its an effect everyone feels to have to use to add realism =)
Same goes for chromatic abberation. For decades lenses are taken to perfection to prevent it from happening.
Take one of your programs and make a red background with blue font on it. Blue and Red are furthest apart in the color spectrum and thus got most different frequencies, resulting in a different refraction on your eyes lens, causing it to look uncomfortable.
You might notice I am no friend of WOW! overusage =)