The big Blender Sculpt Mode thread (Part 2)

[Frozen_Death_Knight]

@Julien_Kaspar

I saw this mentioned multiple times but no examples.

There are multiple examples being discussed over the years. You also directly quoted a bunch of examples. I really don’t understand what you mean by this.

Also, I am one of the people who is in favour of you making the 3D Cursor the default way of moving the pivot point in Sculpt Mode. My whole argument is that if you do make this change it should not come at the expense of already existing functionality as well as not addressing pain points with the 3D Cursor. One such example being the lack of a gizmo despite all the other tools having been given gizmos to make Blender more user friendly when 2.80 reworked them.

@Julien_Kaspar

I totally agree that a cursor tool or transform option to transform only the cursor is needed. The operators will improve. Shortcuts are improving. So that’s not an argument against using the 3D Cursor, but ToDo’s to make the best use of it.
Also: The previous implementation was worse in this. There was no way to transform that pivot specifically.

@Julien_Kaspar

In theory we could create a sculpt mode specific “Snap” pie menu. But it would need different options anyway. Would be good to collect some useful operations, like ‘Snap Cursor to mask border’ or ‘Snap Cursor to Unmasked’?

Sounds good to me. Please go ahead and make the changes in that case.

@Julien_Kaspar

Bottom line I’d say: Try it out for a while once there’s a properly working PR. Don’t judge it on some bugs and missing features, because those can and will be added. Especially with feedback, so it’s good to hear from you what’s missing.

If sculpt mode truly needs it’s own, per-object stored pivot point, then we’ll figure out how to add that as well. But using the 3D Cursor was a highly requested feature for a while and even used as a workaround for the broken, unreliable current pivot point implementation.

People judge based on what is there. You can’t expect feedback to only make judgements based on ideas alone. If you have plans to improve the tool like the ones you wrote down, I am sure people will be more receptive. That being said, people also have to use these systems in the meantime. Just because an idea is theoretically good in the long run doesn’t mean it is practically good in the present. The Auto-Smooth changes can attest to that.

Either way, I’m glad you took your time to address our concerns. I like the plans with the exception of dismissing the idea of storing multiple 3D Cursor positions. It is definitely practical to save those when you deal with multiple objects as well as doing more mathematically precise transformations. It also doesn’t remove the ability to just “throw away” a pivot position like it’s done now. It’s just a good quality of life option with no downsides to any current workflow.

[obsurveyor]

@Tolkfan

Transforming the 3D Cursor’s position separately is part of what Julien wants to do:

I disagree, it’s all related because it affects the 3D Cursor. Doing things without considering all the other parts of Blender is what gets other parts of Blender into the state they have been in, in the past. This is especially relevant if they’re going to make it the transform for the Sculpt mode without some frankenstein transform gizmo/3D Cursor nastiness.

[ThinkingPolygons]

@Julien_Kaspar

The 3D Cursor is a loosely placed, temporary pivot. Similarly to selections and masks, they are meant to be discarded, replaced and recreated easily and often.
I don’t think it’s a valid argument to “lose the position”. The cursor position is not precious in Blender and is easily & often changed.

See that? This is a problem. You are mixing concepts.
You talk as if it was just the 3d cursor but it is not, we are talking pivot here too now, the main sculpt pivot.
We can lose the 3d cursor all day, that’s how the 3d cursor works, but not the pivot. That’s why they should remain separate.

It doesn’t matter how many features or pie menus you add to it, the sculpt pivot just can’t change every time you use the 3d cursor in other modes. This is a disaster. I’m surprised you can’t see that.

The only way you can make this work is by making an exclusive 3d cursor for sculpt mode. One that is not affected by the movement of the 3d cursor from the other modes.

But again, all of this seems totally unnecessary.
When it comes to pivot manipulation, all we need is a checkbox in the transform tools. There’s zero need to over-develop the 3d cursor for that purpose.

[ThinkingPolygons]

@Tolkfan

I disagree, I think the idea seems quite UN-problematic…

do you even tried?
try to put the transform gizmo in a place where youll use it for posing or something
switch to object mode and put the 3d cursor somewhere else
go back to sculpt

if what you see is not problematic then good for you

[Tolkfan]

@ThinkingPolygons

the sculpt pivot just can’t change every time you use the 3d cursor in other modes.

But… the sculpt pivot resets position every time go into another mode. That’s the problem with it it’s a buggy, poor imitation of the 3D Cursor.

[ThinkingPolygons]

@Tolkfan

But… the sculpt pivot resets position every time go into another mode

this is a kind of a bug or limitation that should be fixed
replacing the pivot with the 3d cursor is not the right fix for this

[mhjang (moohyun Jang)]

I’ve used Maya for nearly 20 years and have been using Blender for a few years, but I don’t understand why the 3D cursor and pivot are often discussed together. The 3D cursor is just a unique temporary reference point in Blender, while the pivot is a completely separate issue. Other tools don’t have a 3D cursor. Most users probably want to be able to easily move and rotate the pivot using a gizmo, regardless of the mode, just like in most other software.

[Nime_otaku]

@Tolkfan

I disagree, I think the idea seems quite UN-problematic…

Hello. What do you think to do with this function?
This option is available in object and edit mode
How will it work if the 3d cursor replaces the pivot?

[thorn]

@mhjang

The 3D cursor is just a unique temporary reference point in Blender, while the pivot is a completely separate issue.

Yes. Thank you.

[obsurveyor]

And the 3D Cursor is a poor imitation of the Transform gizmo right now. If they’re going to make the Sculpt pivot be the 3D Cursor then they need to enhance the 3D Cursor’s functionality. They can’t just replace it with the existing 3D Cursor as-is, because that would mean using the real pivot to get the Transform gizmo to line up with the 3D Cursor and have some kind of interactive control but that sounded exactly like what they wanted to with the whole “I saw this but no examples were given.”

[nickberckley (Nika Kutsniashvili)]

I’m very surprised to learn that people don’t see sculpt pivot as temporary placement. It seems many here regard it as something that has to stay fixed and consistent. I’m curious to learn about practical examples where people needed the pivot to stay in the same position throughout the project, does anyone have past projects they can demonstrate that with? For me sculpt pivot was always temporary stuff, I never cared where it was after operation was done, because next time I needed pivot I most likely needed it in different place.

---

Someone already made add-on for storing 3D cursor positions

3D Cursors Briefcase

[zeauro]

@nickberckley

I’m very surprised to learn that people don’t see sculpt pivot as temporary placement.

No. Pivot should move. But it has to be moved at remarkable positions of your sculpt, that may not constantly change.

It does not have to move, at each operation.
The change makes it move, at each translation.
But you may want to rotate around a remarkable position, translate, and then scale around same remarkable position.

The reason why pivot is repositioned at border of mask, Expand Mask operator, is because it makes sense for a scaling, and a little translation is needed to make it make sense for a rotation.
With this implementation, rotation after a little translation is no more relative to mask border.

In theory, we don’t care about pivot position for a translation, what matters for the movement is just the axis.
In practice, we don’t want a fixed pivot for that, that would be far away on screen from that moved part. That is why we want the update for translation.
But we may not want a constantly changed pivot for other transformations.

If you are using a Grab or Elastic Brush for translation, in this implementation, pivot did not move.
When you clear mask, pivot did not move and is probably off-center. User will prefer to move it to origin or center of mesh, before doing a transform.

Origin of object is often a remarkable point. We are generally placing at base or center of object. That is, by default, axis/center of symmetry in Sculpt mode.
Any joint of a character is remarkable place for rotation/scale.
Any center of a member is remarkable place for scale operation.
Any center or basis of a piece of equipment is remarkable place.

We can do sequences of manipulations (rotation, scaling, duplication with radial symmetry in other modes, bending, warping around) for those cases that don’t require to change position of pivot. That is why if we insert a translation in middle of those sequences, using same pivot, we need precision to reposition it.
It is simpler to use an alternative, that did not move, as pivot. That may avoid to store a position for a short sequence, that would not be repeated.

That is why people may be annoyed by a pivot, that may have been reset at another position, when they quitted the mode. That is because their intention was to continue a sequence, interrupted by a check in another mode.

That is the same envy to pursuit a sequence, that is not satisfied. But it is just a particular case. And this implementation satisfies it, but forget the other cases.

@nickberckley

Someone already made add-on for storing 3D cursor positions

It was published, 5 days ago. Our conversation started, 6 days ago.
Thanks to dupoxy.

@Nime_otaku

What do you think to do with this function?
This option is available in object and edit mode
How will it work if the 3d cursor replaces the pivot?

It is available in Sculpt mode, too.
The change is just removing the menu. But you can still change orientation in Gizmos popover.
Generally, we are using Cursor orientation to snap it to something else.
But we can create a custom orientation, instead.
For the moment, repositioning 3D Cursor does not change its orientation.
So, except for its discoverability and speed of execution ; it is not affected by the change.
It is just annoying if this custom orientation corresponds to a custom pivot in another mode.

[mhjang (moohyun Jang)]

I completely agree. I don’t understand why this is being discussed in relation to the 3D cursor.

[Kologe]

I can’t seem to understand throughout all of this trench warfare, how/why is it a thing called Transform Gizmo, according to some, apparently solves everything, while another thing called 3D Cursor does not and is framed as a problematic idea?

Some critizize the 3D Cursor for it is not persistent and doesn’t usually stay put in some given worldspace position/rotation. Maybe a fair point (possibly somewhat dependent on workflows and personal preferences).

But if there was this Transform Gizmo for the Transform Tool, as is apparently being asked for by some, how would that not have the same problem?

Or is it a matter of I’m loosing track of the (number of) different factions in the trench warfare? Like there’s one ‘pro 3D Cursor’-faction, one ‘pro Transform Gizmo’-faction and one third faction which wants yet something else (I haven’t figured out what yet)?

greetings, Kologe

[zeauro]

@Kologe

I can’t seem to understand throughout all of this trench warfare, how/why is it a thing called Transform Gizmo, according to some, apparently solves everything, while another thing called 3D Cursor does not and is framed as a problematic idea?

I don’t think there is a clear trench warfare. I think everybody is pushing for their wish and the confusion may be amplified.

There is no contradiction between improving Transform Gizmo, improving 3D Cursor, improving Sculpt Pivot.
To me, those concepts are complementary, and that is a mistake to think they are in competition.
There are people asking to be able to use Transform Gizmo to move 3D Cursor.

The proposal done by developers is that 3D Cursor and Sculpt Pivot are forced to be at same position.
What we already have is a Transform Gizmo forced to be at Sculpt Pivot position.
The problematic is the control of Sculpt Pivot position.

• If we use 3D Cursor to position Sculpt Pivot, that may be done like in other modes by snapping Sculpt Pivot to it. But there is no reason to force Sculpt Pivot and 3D Cursor to be at same position, all the time.
  That is useful to set pivot at remarkable positions.
• If we use Transform Gizmo to move Sculpt Pivot to another position, we do it in a similar way, we can move origin, using Affect Only Origin option, in Object mode. That is useful to offset Gizmo for a visual feedback purpose.

But, in both cases, there is no permanence of Sculpt Pivot position. It still can be moved by other automations, like when we use Expand Mask operator.
Storing Sculpt Pivot position will be assured by other solutions, like using empties or addon to store past 3D Cursor positions or Blender storing it by default.

It may look like equivalent user preferences.
But Transform Gizmo is already confused with Sculpt pivot. It does not have other purpose than being used by Transform operators.
That is not the case for 3D Cursor ; that can used by user for something else.

[ThinkingPolygons]

@Kologe

I can’t seem to understand

just ask yourself what is the purpose of the 3d cursor
would you like the 3d cursor to be the pivot in object/edit mode?
you know what this means, right? every transformation you do and the cursor moves with it.
cant you see how wrong this is and the hassle it creates?

if this was to happen in object or edit mode, it would never be approved. unfortunately the sculpt mode is kind of an obscure corner in the blender development, thats why theres even a talk about this

i dont know what else can be done to avoid this disaster

[julperado]

@ThinkingPolygons

would you like the 3d cursor to be the pivot in object/edit mode?

But the 3D Cursor IS a pivot point… Just one of many possible options you can use as the pivot point in Object and Edit Mode, I’m sure if it had its own gizmo people wouldn’t be complaining so much.
The Sculpt Pivot of sculpt mode is a half-assed feature that’s unituitive, hard to use and it doesn’t have a way to transform it directly…

[obsurveyor]

@julperado

I’m sure if it had its own gizmo people wouldn’t be complaining so much.

Precisely!

@julperado

The Sculpt Pivot of sculpt mode is a half-assed feature that’s unituitive, hard to use and it doesn’t have a way to transform it directly…

And nowadays, the 3D Cursor falls into the half-assed feature that’s unintuitive category so it needs to be fixed first, then it can be considered for using it in Sculpt mode.

[julperado]

@obsurveyor

And nowadays, the 3D Cursor falls into the half-assed feature that’s unintuitive category so it needs to be fixed first, then it can be considered for using it in Sculpt mode.

Right, that’s why I said before that we just need a proper gizmo for the 3D cursor across the whole program, not just for sculpt mode. That and proper undo support

[ThinkingPolygons]

@julperado

But the 3D Cursor IS a pivot point

theres a huge difference between being used as a pivot and being the default pivot

@julperado

I’m sure if it had its own gizmo people wouldn’t be complaining so much.

people would complain less i guess, but it would still be an alternative way of manipulating the pivot. which is what the 3d cursor is for

merging the sculpt pivot and the 3d cursor only brings limitation and hassle

@julperado

The Sculpt Pivot of sculpt mode is a half-assed feature that’s unituitive, hard to use and it doesn’t have a way to transform it directly…

thats because its buggy
what they needed to do first and foremost is fix the issue of the pivot resetting its position every time you go out of sculpt mode and then go back
after that all they needed to do is implement p dobarros patch
problem solved

the 3d cursor would still be there and could be used the same way its used in other modes

simple