I do sense a person here who is using pretty bold statements and
slightly insulting others users?
extremely outdated version of luxrender
no mypaint - had to compile this from source
Blender only up 2.48
I am using 9.04, Want me to keep going or does this answer your question? If you play within the walled garden of the software manager than Linux is easy but once you stray out of it than I think you need to know a bit about the terminal. I am geek enough to actually put in the time to learn how to use the terminal and I am slowly doing so but most people are not.
You realize you’re using a version that came out a year before the current 10.04, right?
And that they only really upgrade software after a release for bug fixes and security matters – as a general rule they won’t bump versions without good reason.
So… what do you get with 10.04 you might ask?
Blender 2.49.2
Mypaint 0.8.2
Didn’t see lux though, looks like it was dropped for some reason after karmic. Probably because nobody was updating it.
They’ll even mail you an install disk if your internets suck so you don’t even have an excuse to not upgrade…
Walled garden of the software manager, huh?
Other than Boost (the version in the repos wasn’t new enough to compile ramenhdr against) and libpng (patched for animated pngs) all the software on my computer is straight out of the repos.
Well…then there’s the stuff I pull out of svn servers here and there to play with like blender, pixie, google’s V8, debug build of python 3.2, libjit, etc…
But still my point remains valid you have disproved nothing. My point in case you read past it is that Linux for the Noob is easy as long as the stuff you are looking for is in the software manager. Thats the walled garden even 10.04 probabley has stuff missing in there in that software manager that someone might want to use. You can’t anticipate and cover everyones needs.
If you don’t find something in that software manager than things get technical quick; like oh if you wanted to use a 2.50 build and didn’t have all the dependencies if you know nothing about the termnial even the basic stuff you will be stuck with a blender build that doesn’t work and you won’t know why.
p.s. I have a crappy internet but I downloaded torrent of all the iso versions all the updates up to 10.04 but am still evaluating things. So far it just feels like a pointless parallel move that has brought me little advantage so I will on all likelihood revert to Windows.
if its not in the repository, in general, it is outside of ‘general use’ and if you are going to start using advanced programs, you’re gonna have to start to learn a few more advanced ways of installing them.
Besides which, for 95% of packages i have encountered, the ‘hard-way’ involves the standard ‘./configure; make; sudo make install’ or ‘cmake; sudo make install’ …
In saying that, i still cant get LuxBlend2.5 to run … but thats the problem with using unreleased software - the step-by-step instructions are generally unreleased also, and you’ve just gotta wear it.
So?
If you don’t find a windows package (or installer) things get technical quick.
Same for OSX.
And the BSDs, Solaris, etc, etc…
Your point is?
I see the hassle the devs go through to maintain these fancy packages for windows and it doesn’t look too pretty compared to a simple ‘use the system libs’ philosophy of linux where all the deps for blender are a simple apt-get away.
Oh, you thought those windows packages you download off graphicall just built themselves?
I really don´t get it what you are complaining about.
Just because something isn´t in the package manager doesn´t mean you can´t install it.
Do you also search for your windows software in Add/Remove Software and don´t install what isn´t there? - then you wouldn´t even have blender…
If windows has something missing you want, you google, download it, install it and run the binary.
In linux if something is missing, you use the package manager to install it. If it isn´t there, all that it means is, that none of the package maintainers compiled it yet, for the libraries you use in your current distribution.
All the package mangager is, is an additional service for you, so you don´t have to worry about dependencies and libraries.
In windows everything comes with 50% redundant libraries, the rest of the dll´s are in the windows folder and shared.
Ever installed a game on windows on a fresh machine? It needs DirectX, VisualC runtimes, physix drivers, cuda, some need openAL… all libraries you got to install.
“Error: msvctrl80.dll missing” anyone?
Install something using QT, SDL, or GTK in windows, you either got to install the runtimes for it, compile the libraries yourself, or pray the binary got the dll onboard in the right version already.
So once you got 10 different GTK tools installed, you got 10 different GTK runtimes prolly in different versions as well - or you use the latest one in your \windows\system or system32 folder.
Linux, being bascically one huge sourcecode compiled without library redundancies works “different”
Binaries don´t look up their libraries in the folder they are, they look in the system if they are there. If the library is outdated it will not run if it uses new features of a newer library generation - no matter if its a precompiled binary, or you compile it yourself, or if it is a package.
Talking of packages, its something superior to windows, its like downloading a tool that needs libraries, which knows which libraries it needs and brings them with it.
If it would need newer libraries or conflicts with something else, there´s no package until it perfectly fits in the picture. easy as pie.
So ubuntu9 has no blender 2.5? Nor does ubuntu10.
Windows hasn´t either, you manage to get it there as well don´t you?
You needed to install python in windows as well, don´t you?
And Ubuntu being the topdog in the consumer linux distributions at the moment, made the net swarm with precompiled ubuntu packages for virtually everything… there´s barely any need to compile anything anymore unless you want to grab the latest builds off a svn/cvs.
And if somone doesn´t want to spend time to learn linux, then don´t use it.
Everyone had to learn windows at a point as well, just because most grew up with it doesn´t mean you didn´t have to learn it.
I am from a generation where I had to learn how to use a Schneider PC, then I had to learn how to use a C64, how to handle datasettes, then they invented Floppys, then Joysticks. After using joysticks and keyboards for years, they came up with the mouse, had to learn it, MSDos, something completely new, suddenly Windows popped up, changed everything, had to learn it, suddenly after windows 3.11 they came up with windows95, it changed everything with directX, 90% of what you knew of graphic programming was for the gutter.
All you can complain about is that you don´t have time to learn something new, or different for that matter.
And I am sure there are more people here that wanted to use linux as production environment, but after spending 1 day finding out how to set the time from UTC to local time, 2 days reading how to set the locales, spending 3 days to find out how to install a hardware 3D driver they gave up, because you don´t have that amount of time just to setup your system to start working… 
Those ppl surely appreciate Ubuntu as it is today :yes:
The problem “Windows VS Linux” is the redundancy it seems to have to others.
Linux isn´t better or windows worse, it´s just different.
There are 2 reasons why to learn Linux:
- you need it for something particular it does best
- you want to broaden your horizont
And then there is the “I´ve heared a lot I want to see it” faction.
Those fail because they expect an forgiving OS like windows is - which linux isn´t becaues of the freedom it offers. Besides that, they learned windows already, and it works, why learn another OS, or best put:
Why sacrifice time to learn how to do the very same things different.
It is like learning a language. If you already learned English, why learn another language, most speak english anyway. Why learn Japanese, all you can do with it, is talk, and you can do that in english as well
I think its a matter of personal development to learn linux, only a few really need to learn it - not implying those who don´t are ignorant, many got simply no time, or different hobbies.
I think the main issue linux has is the freedom.
Freedom is worthless without information - and for linux you need quite some knowledge, even hardware knowledge and knowledge of the basic operations within a computer
You got freedom to do pretty much anything in Linux, given you know how. That sort of dynamic needs very strict rules. Without knowing the rules you end up doing something wrong.
In windows you get pretended freedom, you can do a lot, but you have certain limits and where the user is likely to err, the freedom is taken away and reduncancies and failsaves hook in.
However Ubuntu is a hyppocrit there. It preaches Linux, the absolute freedom, which people expect, but the usability they put into it, translates into taking away freedom to make it more failsave and make it more accessible to people without in depth knowledge.
You can have that freedom in ubuntu as well, get mypaint in 9 or blender 2.5, but then it requires you to take the initiative. Freedom never was won without a fight.
And I think to see the advantages of Linux requires to understand it.
Thats what he is getting at. Its very hard to install it if its not in package manager. I spent hours searching how to install Handbrake on new 10.04 and its still not available unless you are a total geek. Under windows, Ill just download exe or whatever and run it. Its gonna ask me few questions and that will be it.
@arexma hell not every argument on the internet is worth winning but if you bothered read this thread from the first post and note how everyone is complaining more or less about the same thing. If lots of people are complaining about the same thing that’s a sign to stop and get a clue.
@zanos thanks at least you get it.
let me for the sake of clarity repeat what I have been getting at “installing things in Linux that are not in the package manager(<-the walled garden) regardless of what version of Linux you are on is very hard. If you know little or nothing about the terminal you will be stuck. If a program does not run clicking on it helps little as you get no error message that indicates what want wrong. It is only by trying to run it through the terminal that you find out what dependency you are lacking. This can be a problem at times as dependencies often have their own dependencies which you have to track down and hunt.”
What are you talking about winning? o.O
To be perfectly blunt I don´t give a rats ass if people think linux is great or not, use it or not. If you have read some of my posts during the years it should be perfectly clear that i am a pragmatic opportunist. Use whatever gets the job done and floats your boat.
Also for me Linux has its downsides, but the benefits for me outweight them.
However.
It is about understanding, that what bugs me, you and the others as well are indirectly complaining about the core essence of linux.
Something not beeing in the package manager usually means someone in the world has´t got the time yet, to use his personal time for free to make a package for your convinience.
Take Gentoo (and many other distros), it has no packages whatsoever.
Packages are a free service from mostly non-profit organisations with volunteers or by independent volunteers.
And thats the learning part I meant: Track down missing libraries and dependencies requires a basic understanding how linux is build and how software is written.
After all Linux is one big program with an interconnected sourcecode and millions of people writing on it.
Sure it´s hard for someone not into coding, but one can find his way around with google if you´r willing to spend time.
At the end of the day that’s what linux is, no complaining or criticising will ever change it.
Thats why I say, either learn your way around, or leave it be, it´s not going to change.
But complaining something isn´t in the package repo yet, is indirectly criticizing all the people that sacrifice their time for your convinince filling the repos with packages for all the distros.
Was it you who said you had to compile mypaint yourself for ubuntu 9?
You made it that far, if you’d have read a bit further you could have made a package and then posted it for other blenderheads to use not to search dependencies and compile themselfes.
Take Cinelerra. Great stuff, kickass Video Editing tool, no official distro packages, maybe because there are no maintainers or the coder is a complete library chaotic. Who cares it is not showing in the package manager.
Still there are people downloading the source into their ubuntu, changing the dependencies and commands in its sourcecode, installing libraries from the current ubuntu release until it finally compiles.
Then this person makes a packages, maybe has a small server running so you can add it in your repository and just install it from the package manager, and the package the other guy made will make sure your ubuntu downloads the right libraries for your distribution, and he also made sure the binary he created will run on your distribution.
I also have no idea who is maintaining the blender packages or in particular the one for ubuntu.
There are quite a few distros out there (http://distrowatch.com/) and then sometimes in testing, stable, unstable, amd64, x86, arm, IA64, sparc… and for each one you need someone to maintain the package and keep it running with every change in a library or the kernel and that for free because of the spirit linux was created with.
And here you are, basically complaining about those people not working fast enough for free? 
No offence, you where most likely complaining about the effect without knowing the reasons.
But as you said, if all that is too much fuzz, you might as well revert to windows.
It would be sad though, because for what I read, you put a lot of efford into understanding linux already. You got to weigh the benefits against the downsides yourself and decide.
Not winning you for the dark side I want young penguin. 
Well, that didnt worth either so I had to do fresh install. It works fine now. I got some cool themes from here. :yes:
Yep, that’s a quite common theme around here.
Pity the fool that takes money from these people…
Pretty useful posts arexama O__O ! Thanks.
Well, for me, learning about how to use the terminal was the most part of my experience with Ubuntu (Ive been using it since Ubuntu 8.04).
And when I bought my first mac (MacBook Pro) several months ago, it was sort of an upgrade from Ubuntu!
As they are both Unix-based, most Terminal’s commands are the same with the exception that you don’t need to run anything manually on an OSX.
And Ubuntu saved my precious data when Windows Vista crashed dangerously without warning… I owe Linux that one 
Well I have been using (and perhaps abusing too) Ubuntu now for 3 weeks and I’m very happy about it. It offers so much, that it has made me ditch Mircosoft completely. Ubuntu is a very complete suit, and the nice thing about it is that you can modify everything. If something does not work, nothing stops you from doing it yourself. A quick google should fix most problems, and if they don’t you can ask experts that do. Then again, this is not for everyone. If you don’t like them you can always choose a different distribution, or go Mac/Windows.
The only real problems I have with Ubuntu, come from applications that own the industry. Adobe for example is not portable, yet I do need it quite often. I’ve been looking into a Gimp and mypaint for this particular reason, trying to stay away from Adobe as much as I can. It’s also one of the main reasons I turned Blender. I might dual boot for games and Adobe, but for the main amount of time I’ll be spending it on Ubuntu.
PS: Thank you for mentioning Cinellera arexma. I’ve been looking for a good video editor for some time. I’ll try that one.
I see many are just trolling – amazing the number of windows fans whom Ubuntu seem to hate – or just afraid of change as always and others are genuinely annoyed that they can’t run their favorite programs from Ubuntu, like Songbird:
http://www.getsongbird.com/system-requirements.php
sorry, no Linux for you. This is not a problem with any package manager, Ubuntu or whatever, it’s just developers wanting you to be either on Windows or Mac. Like indeed most hardware developers with their Windows drivers or game developers slaves to Microsoft’s DirectX instead of OpenGl…
Who the hell needs focking Songbird in the first place, though, when open-source Amarok just kicks most media players’ collective butts major time?
If you need Photoshop though, you’re screwed. Either you learn Gimp’s limitations and ins and outs and live with it, or you keep whining endlessly about it in off-topic forums across the web.
You really want to have the latest Luxrender on your 1+ year old frozen software repository, is that right? Yeah, it’s frozen in time and only receives security bug fixes.
In any case, they release binaries for general Linux:
http://www.luxrender.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4209
just hope your 1±year old system libs are up to the task of running them. As you see, they take the same approach as most Blender Linux builds: release the binaries and hope the user will resolve any missing dependencies.
MyPaint on the other hand takes the package repository route: release a package for latest distro and leave it to the package manager to resolve dependencies.
In either case the user is screwed: either he can’t run the binary because of missing dependencies or because of missing distro package for his old distro. Windows way of releasing package with binary and all dependencies is more sane, at the cost of redundancy and HD waste (which was much more of a problem back then)…
…don’t forget at the cost of security as well…
What is the situation with uninstalling a program in linux these days? Do the dependencies in the common system repository also get removed? And is there something to prevent you from removing a dependency that another program needs?
jrboddie: no they do not get autoremoved.